40 year old killing but where is the balance?
Discussion
Grumfutock said:
As for RUC etc. not being scrutinized, Lee Clegg? Charlie McCormick? John Weir? Billy McCaughey? Laurence Tate? If you don't know then learn. Plenty that crossed the line were and are prosecuted and again, rightly so.
Are you having a laugh or just downright ignorant. The RUC are possibly the most discredited police force in history, they worked hand in hand with loyalist death squads, in fact on may occasions they were one and the same. As the old saying went, RUC 93% protestant, 100% loyalist.Lee Clegg, seriously??? I mean you couldn't have picked a worse example. Didn't he shoot two teenagers dead one of them a girl, whose crime was to be in a stolen car? I am working from memory here, without resorting to google, but he is hardly a good example of the impartiality of the law. Maybe you remember the trouble his early release caused, one rule for one and one for the rest.
Thankfully the north of Ireland is moving on from those troubled times, it seems that you are unable to move on from that period in our recent history and the part you played in them.
Lee Clegg, what a quality example.
Part of checkpoint who may or may not have premeditated intentions to shoot a car up. And after the shooting conspired to have one of the checkpoint members sustain an injury to their leg an attempt to say the car crashed into them. Then the after the murders celebrated with a cake made in the shape of a Vauxhaul Astra with a slogan to the effect of "Made in xxxx, stopped by <their regiment>". Ultimately freed.
Other examples you could have chosen are Scots Guards Mark Fisher and James Wright who shot dead an 18 year old as he ran away from a checkpoint. They were found guilty, imprisoned but were released after three years back into the Army.
Yes, some of the more blatant Army murderers were indeed investigated and convicted, and some were subsequently lucky enough to released and promoted up the ranks.
Part of checkpoint who may or may not have premeditated intentions to shoot a car up. And after the shooting conspired to have one of the checkpoint members sustain an injury to their leg an attempt to say the car crashed into them. Then the after the murders celebrated with a cake made in the shape of a Vauxhaul Astra with a slogan to the effect of "Made in xxxx, stopped by <their regiment>". Ultimately freed.
Other examples you could have chosen are Scots Guards Mark Fisher and James Wright who shot dead an 18 year old as he ran away from a checkpoint. They were found guilty, imprisoned but were released after three years back into the Army.
Yes, some of the more blatant Army murderers were indeed investigated and convicted, and some were subsequently lucky enough to released and promoted up the ranks.
Grumfutock said:
Early release? One rule for one? Hmmmmmm
I seem to recall the good Friday mass releases, did they apply to Lee Clegg?
You sir are more biased than a big biased badger who is blinded by a green, white and orange flag over his eyes.
Clegg was released well before the good friday agreement. Personally I don't agree with the GFA or the early releases, but it was what society needed at the time.I seem to recall the good Friday mass releases, did they apply to Lee Clegg?
You sir are more biased than a big biased badger who is blinded by a green, white and orange flag over his eyes.
Maybe you should seek help, at a guess you seem to be suffering from some form of PTSD. All that bitterness can't be good for you, let it go. Then again maybe you are carrying around a lot of guilt.
I've never been blinded by anything, certainly not a worthless flag, you only seem to be blinded by your own bigotry and prejudices. You can't run away from your conscience.
Kaj91 said:
Clegg was released well before the good friday agreement. Personally I don't agree with the GFA or the early releases, but it was what society needed at the time.
Maybe you should seek help, at a guess you seem to be suffering from some form of PTSD. All that bitterness can't be good for you, let it go. Then again maybe you are carrying around a lot of guilt.
I've never been blinded by anything, certainly not a worthless flag, you only seem to be blinded by your own bigotry and prejudices. You can't run away from your conscience.
WOW you are now a fully qualified psychiatrist as well a historian and political expert. This is only surpassed by your terminal republicanism, are you Gerry Adams in disguise? Maybe you should seek help, at a guess you seem to be suffering from some form of PTSD. All that bitterness can't be good for you, let it go. Then again maybe you are carrying around a lot of guilt.
I've never been blinded by anything, certainly not a worthless flag, you only seem to be blinded by your own bigotry and prejudices. You can't run away from your conscience.
Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 27th April 07:57
Grumfutock said:
WOW you are now a fully qualified psychiatrist as well a historian and political expert. This is only surpassed by your terminal republicanism, are you Gerry Adams in disguise?
I'm not yet fully qualified. I'm Gerry without the beard.Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 27th April 07:57
Kaj91 said:
Grumfutock said:
WOW you are now a fully qualified psychiatrist as well a historian and political expert. This is only surpassed by your terminal republicanism, are you Gerry Adams in disguise?
I'm not yet fully qualified. I'm Gerry without the beard.Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 27th April 07:57
Grumfutock said:
Kaj91 said:
Grumfutock said:
WOW you are now a fully qualified psychiatrist as well a historian and political expert. This is only surpassed by your terminal republicanism, are you Gerry Adams in disguise?
I'm not yet fully qualified. I'm Gerry without the beard.Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 27th April 07:57
The state was involved in mass murder on British soil, a lawyer has told a coroner’s court.
The security forces colluded with loyalist paramilitaries in 80 deaths between July 1972 and June 1978 in Northern Ireland’s “murder triangle” in counties Armagh and Tyrone, Leslie Thomas QC said.
He said many were carried out by the Glenanne Gang of gunmen with the alleged involvement of soldiers and police officers.
Mr Thomas said it could take a year to hear inquests and compared the task to that of investigating the Hillsborough football disaster.
“If what we say is right this is the biggest involvement of state agents in mass murder on British soil,” he said.
He added: “We say that what the families of the bereaved want, quite simply can be put in a few words: they want the truth, they want the truth to come out, they want justice.”
Mr Thomas was addressing a preliminary hearing in Belfast of two inquests involving a UVF bombing at the Step Inn in Keady in Co Armagh in 1976 during which Catholics Elizabeth McDonald, 38, and Gerard McGleenan, 22, died.
He said the same weapons were used in many of the Glenanne murders and the killers adopted the same modus operandi, accused the authorities of state-sponsored terrorism and claimed one individual involved in killing Ms McDonald should have been dealt with sooner.
He said: “The murder of Betty McDonald could have been avoided, could have been avoided had that individual been taken off the street earlier on or the weapons been taken off the street earlier on, or there had not been the collusion amongst state agents in covering up earlier murders, then in terms of Betty McDonald’s right to life we say she may be still here today, living long into life with her husband.”
The UVF gang operated out of farms in Armagh and Tyrone in the mid 1970s when the Troubles were at their worst.
Lawyers for the victims have insisted only a public inquiry or an inquest covering all the deaths can get to the truth of the collusion claims. Senior coroner John Leckey said he was constrained by the resources available to his office.
The PSNI’s Historical Enquiries Team (HET) has found “indisputable evidence” of security force collusion in the group.
Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers has declined to be represented at the inquest. No submission has been made to her seeking a public inquiry but Mr Thomas said the McDonald family was not surprised she allegedly did not want to be involved.
He added: “This is the biggest case of state collusion in mass murder of innocent individuals. This is a state murdering its own, you cannot get bigger than that, and therefore while one sees and understands and looks at what is happening in Hillsborough, if what we say has occurred on, let’s face it, British soil, why should that not be investigated?
“British security agents being involved in deaths of British citizens, it does not get worse than that.”
Mother-of-three Ms McDonald and GAA footballer Mr McGleenan were killed when a no-warning loyalist bomb detonated outside the Step Inn pub and nearby houses in August 1976. Twenty-five other people were injured.
Northern Ireland’s Attorney General John Larkin QC ordered the new inquest.
Mr Thomas acknowledged there had been convictions in some of the other killings he said were linked, but he added a narrow criminal investigation was not enough.
“Many of those responsible were either serving or former members of the security forces. There were close ballistic links between the victims, the weapons used in many of the killings which originated within the UDR.”
He quoted the HET report: “Despite the obvious pattern and linkages between these offences, only cursory efforts have been made to investigate further.
“No determined efforts were made to investigate them in a meaningful fashion.
“This (Step Inn) bombing could have been prevented and should have been detected.”
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/glenanne...
The security forces colluded with loyalist paramilitaries in 80 deaths between July 1972 and June 1978 in Northern Ireland’s “murder triangle” in counties Armagh and Tyrone, Leslie Thomas QC said.
He said many were carried out by the Glenanne Gang of gunmen with the alleged involvement of soldiers and police officers.
Mr Thomas said it could take a year to hear inquests and compared the task to that of investigating the Hillsborough football disaster.
“If what we say is right this is the biggest involvement of state agents in mass murder on British soil,” he said.
He added: “We say that what the families of the bereaved want, quite simply can be put in a few words: they want the truth, they want the truth to come out, they want justice.”
Mr Thomas was addressing a preliminary hearing in Belfast of two inquests involving a UVF bombing at the Step Inn in Keady in Co Armagh in 1976 during which Catholics Elizabeth McDonald, 38, and Gerard McGleenan, 22, died.
He said the same weapons were used in many of the Glenanne murders and the killers adopted the same modus operandi, accused the authorities of state-sponsored terrorism and claimed one individual involved in killing Ms McDonald should have been dealt with sooner.
He said: “The murder of Betty McDonald could have been avoided, could have been avoided had that individual been taken off the street earlier on or the weapons been taken off the street earlier on, or there had not been the collusion amongst state agents in covering up earlier murders, then in terms of Betty McDonald’s right to life we say she may be still here today, living long into life with her husband.”
The UVF gang operated out of farms in Armagh and Tyrone in the mid 1970s when the Troubles were at their worst.
Lawyers for the victims have insisted only a public inquiry or an inquest covering all the deaths can get to the truth of the collusion claims. Senior coroner John Leckey said he was constrained by the resources available to his office.
The PSNI’s Historical Enquiries Team (HET) has found “indisputable evidence” of security force collusion in the group.
Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers has declined to be represented at the inquest. No submission has been made to her seeking a public inquiry but Mr Thomas said the McDonald family was not surprised she allegedly did not want to be involved.
He added: “This is the biggest case of state collusion in mass murder of innocent individuals. This is a state murdering its own, you cannot get bigger than that, and therefore while one sees and understands and looks at what is happening in Hillsborough, if what we say has occurred on, let’s face it, British soil, why should that not be investigated?
“British security agents being involved in deaths of British citizens, it does not get worse than that.”
Mother-of-three Ms McDonald and GAA footballer Mr McGleenan were killed when a no-warning loyalist bomb detonated outside the Step Inn pub and nearby houses in August 1976. Twenty-five other people were injured.
Northern Ireland’s Attorney General John Larkin QC ordered the new inquest.
Mr Thomas acknowledged there had been convictions in some of the other killings he said were linked, but he added a narrow criminal investigation was not enough.
“Many of those responsible were either serving or former members of the security forces. There were close ballistic links between the victims, the weapons used in many of the killings which originated within the UDR.”
He quoted the HET report: “Despite the obvious pattern and linkages between these offences, only cursory efforts have been made to investigate further.
“No determined efforts were made to investigate them in a meaningful fashion.
“This (Step Inn) bombing could have been prevented and should have been detected.”
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/glenanne...
The cases being examined include the Miami Showband Massacre in 1975*
Families of more than 100 1970s murder victims have began legal action over claims of collusion by members of the security forces with loyalists.
The Belfast hearing had to be moved to a larger court, due to the interest.
Relatives of people killed in atrocities such as the Miami Showband Massacre and Step Inn bombing packed the public gallery of High Court.
The court heard a statement from a senior investigating officer from the Historical Enquiries Team.
He said he had compiled a draft report into collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and security force members in mid-Ulster in the 1970s.
The officer said it was 150 pages long and 80% complete.
He said he had submitted it in 2010 and, so far, has had no explanation as to why it has been shelved.
Why can't we just agree that the IRA and all it's offshoots while having an honorable cause were/are murdering scum who used that honorable cause as an excuse to kill and maim.
And that the Protestant paramilitary organisations were/are every bit as bad as the republicans but without the honorable cause to hide their actions behind.
While the British army who lets not forget went there with the purpose of protecting the catholics, had a very difficult job and while no doubt there were bad apples, no doubt were in the main decent people.
It is time to draw a line under it all and stop prosecuting people, even that pair of b
ds Adams and McGuinness.
And that the Protestant paramilitary organisations were/are every bit as bad as the republicans but without the honorable cause to hide their actions behind.
While the British army who lets not forget went there with the purpose of protecting the catholics, had a very difficult job and while no doubt there were bad apples, no doubt were in the main decent people.
It is time to draw a line under it all and stop prosecuting people, even that pair of b
ds Adams and McGuinness.Tonights programme, while shocking, is sadly not surprising. Available on the iplayer for anyone interested http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05x8gzs
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