Baltimore race riots

[carinaman]

The article that kaj91 linked to showed how the police turned away those making allegations of rape. I think that's comparable with that Sapphire unit in London not being overly keen on dealing with rape cases as it may have not been good for their crime and detection rates.

I'm not sure I can be bothered to draw distinctions between book cooking financiers screwing the global economy and police officers screwing over rape victims.

Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 5th May 14:31

[unrepentant]

La Liga said:

ccountancy would be a good place to start. Many clever ways to make things look better than they are. When taken to extremes check out the likes of Tesco.

Atlantic computers and the late John Foulston.............

[Matt Harper]

Bluebarge said:

Matt Harper said:

There is a suggestion that his injury was caused by coming into contact with an exposed bolt that protruded into the detention area of the vehicle he was transported in. The police officers who have been charged were not riding in the back of the vehicle - and the one charged with murder was a stand-in doing the driving for a bit of overtime. Interestingly, there was another detainee in the back who sustained no injuries whatsoever - so the theory that the driver deliberately 'rattled them around' seems less than plausible. The charges are as a result of a weak prosecutor (who is 'connected' to the victims lawyers) being held to ransom by a bunch of lawless looters and gang-bangers, who, left to their own devices would have burned their own city to the ground presumably.

There's a whole load of assumptions in your post which may, or may not, turn out to be nonsense. The problem with the US prosecution system is that the DA and defense attornies spend a lot of time trailing "evidence" in the media before it is ever brought to the Court. So, each side has their say to influence the court of public opinion, but none of this eveidence can be truly believed until it has been tested in court. Then, and only then, will we know the truth of what happened.

Please highlight the assumptions that trouble you - but also do the same regarding the posts that suggest that the deceased was just minding his own business when he was set-upon by the racist thugs of the Baltimore PD and summarily murdered by methods unknown, in a location that is also unknown because he was black.

[Digga]

vetrof said:

I think the "war on drugs" has a lot to do with creating the socio-economic conditions which are an obvious contributor.
Nixon has a lot to answer for.
http://www.alternet.org/story/17422/the_nixon_tape...

When you are 'outside' of the street/gang culture, it is very easy to miss how unavoidable the whole thing is to anyone living in deprived areas. The application of the law and the methods of policing used have perfectly crystalised a "them and us" scenario.

[Bluebarge]

Matt Harper said:

Bluebarge said:

Matt Harper said:

There is a suggestion that his injury was caused by coming into contact with an exposed bolt that protruded into the detention area of the vehicle he was transported in. The police officers who have been charged were not riding in the back of the vehicle - and the one charged with murder was a stand-in doing the driving for a bit of overtime. Interestingly, there was another detainee in the back who sustained no injuries whatsoever - so the theory that the driver deliberately 'rattled them around' seems less than plausible. The charges are as a result of a weak prosecutor (who is 'connected' to the victims lawyers) being held to ransom by a bunch of lawless looters and gang-bangers, who, left to their own devices would have burned their own city to the ground presumably.

There's a whole load of assumptions in your post which may, or may not, turn out to be nonsense. The problem with the US prosecution system is that the DA and defense attornies spend a lot of time trailing "evidence" in the media before it is ever brought to the Court. So, each side has their say to influence the court of public opinion, but none of this eveidence can be truly believed until it has been tested in court. Then, and only then, will we know the truth of what happened.

Please highlight the assumptions that trouble you - but also do the same regarding the posts that suggest that the deceased was just minding his own business when he was set-upon by the racist thugs of the Baltimore PD and summarily murdered by methods unknown, in a location that is also unknown because he was black.

Pretty well all of them, most notably the assumption that all of the statements you have made regarding what happened are true, because we won't know that until the trial. However, what really takes the biscuit is your last sentence, where you cast aspersions on the local prosecutor and the victim's attornies without adducing any evidence for your claims.

I'm afraid I won't take you up on the second part of your challenge as I didn't make any of the statements you allude to and, as I stated above, I think it is best to let the judicial process take its course, rather than repeat accusations made in the media which we cannot verify.

[Matt Harper]

Bluebarge said:

Pretty well all of them, most notably the assumption that all of the statements you have made regarding what happened are true, because we won't know that until the trial. However, what really takes the biscuit is your last sentence, where you cast aspersions on the local prosecutor and the victim's attornies without adducing any evidence for your claims.

I'm afraid I won't take you up on the second part of your challenge as I didn't make any of the statements you allude to and, as I stated above, I think it is best to let the judicial process take its course, rather than repeat accusations made in the media which we cannot verify.

"Maryland State’s Attorney and chief prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, made groundbreaking headlines on the morning of Friday, May 1. For those who missed it, Mosby’s shocking press conference included details about the controversial death of Freddie Gray and the announcement of charges being brought against six Baltimore police officers.

Although local citizens were elated about the step toward justice for Gray, there are some people who aren’t too pleased with the decisions being made. Now, Mosby is being scrutinized due to a number of factors regarding her personal life.

According to the Daily Mail, Baltimore defense attorney Warren Brown recently shared his concerns about Mosby’s orders, because he feels there are a number of questionable factors that may have contributed to the decision to charge the officers. Brown expressed concerns about Mosby’s close relationship with Baltimore attorney, William “Billy” Murphy.

Apparently, Murphy is Mosby’s mentor, but he’s also the attorney representing Freddy Gray’s family. It has also been reported that Murphy was one of the largest contributors for Mosby’s campaign, which took place four months ago."


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2058782/marilyn-mosby-fac...

[unrepentant]

Mosby also comes from a long line of cops so you could just as easily argue that she could be biased the other way. I think she's a decisive SA who's made a brave decision. We cannot just continue to accept inaction in relation to the death of black men by police. Maybe they'll be found not guilty (It's notoriously difficult to get convictions against cops in the USA), maybe they won't but justice needs to be seen to be done.

[Atmospheric]

SystemParanoia said:

TheForceV4 said:

BlackLabel said:

Protest against institutionalised racism in your town by helping yourself to booze, consumer electronics and a new pair of trainers. These morons are a disgrace.

Hello. Black here. After watching the news, I saw this thread and didn't really want to read it because unfortunately it is all correctly summed up in the quoted post.

I'm thoroughly embarrassed. There is a way to do things, this is not it.

also black...

and just as embarrassed.

i mean..



ffs

x3 for the black PHer. Absolutely disgraceful. there are setbacks to progress and there are setbacks.

[Matt Harper]

unrepentant said:

Mosby also comes from a long line of cops so you could just as easily argue that she could be biased the other way. I think she's a decisive SA who's made a brave decision. We cannot just continue to accept inaction in relation to the death of black men by police. Maybe they'll be found not guilty (It's notoriously difficult to get convictions against cops in the USA), maybe they won't but justice needs to be seen to be done.

I beg to differ. Let's not kid ourselves that she is anything other than an aspiring politician.
I think she made an incredibly weak decision, in that she capitulated to the mob - and not only that, she announced guilt before they'd even posted bail - and she's 'affiliated' (read into that what you will), with the attorney who's representing Gray's family FFS!
She has totally caved-in to mob rule. What kind of message does that project? If you don't like it - go ahead and riot, until they give in.

[unrepentant]

Matt Harper said:

unrepentant said:

Mosby also comes from a long line of cops so you could just as easily argue that she could be biased the other way. I think she's a decisive SA who's made a brave decision. We cannot just continue to accept inaction in relation to the death of black men by police. Maybe they'll be found not guilty (It's notoriously difficult to get convictions against cops in the USA), maybe they won't but justice needs to be seen to be done.

I beg to differ. Let's not kid ourselves that she is anything other than an aspiring politician.
I think she made an incredibly weak decision, in that she capitulated to the mob - and not only that, she announced guilt before they'd even posted bail - and she's 'affiliated' (read into that what you will), with the attorney who's representing Gray's family FFS!
She has totally caved-in to mob rule. What kind of message does that project? If you don't like it - go ahead and riot, until they give in.

I disagree Matt. Justice will be seen to be done, as it wasn't in Ferguson. If they all get acquited she'll be toast so it's a brave decision. She announced charges, not guilt, that's for a jury to decide.

[anonymous-user]

carinaman said:

The article that kaj91 linked to showed how the police turned away those making allegations of rape. I think that's comparable with that Sapphire unit in London not being overly keen on dealing with rape cases as it may have not been good for their crime and detection rates.

I'm not sure I can be bothered to draw distinctions between book cooking financiers screwing the global economy and police officers screwing over rape victims.

I don't think you should bother because you have no grasp of intensity, impact or scale. The scale and harm of the data manipulation that caused the recession caused far more harm, suffering and lasting damage than poor service to some sexual offence victims.

unrepentant said:

La Liga said:

Accountancy would be a good place to start. Many clever ways to make things look better than they are. When taken to extremes check out the likes of Tesco.

Atlantic computers and the late John Foulston.............

Indeed. Another obvious one is Enron. There are many examples.

The point I am making is that it's individual and collective human behaviour and human flaws that cause issues within organisations. People like Carinaman (and others on here), who have an agenda, like to frame it as a 'private good', 'public bad' argument, when really the common denominator is the same, it's people.

[Bluebarge]

Matt Harper said:

Bluebarge said:

Pretty well all of them, most notably the assumption that all of the statements you have made regarding what happened are true, because we won't know that until the trial. However, what really takes the biscuit is your last sentence, where you cast aspersions on the local prosecutor and the victim's attornies without adducing any evidence for your claims.

I'm afraid I won't take you up on the second part of your challenge as I didn't make any of the statements you allude to and, as I stated above, I think it is best to let the judicial process take its course, rather than repeat accusations made in the media which we cannot verify.

"Maryland State’s Attorney and chief prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, made groundbreaking headlines on the morning of Friday, May 1. For those who missed it, Mosby’s shocking press conference included details about the controversial death of Freddie Gray and the announcement of charges being brought against six Baltimore police officers.

Although local citizens were elated about the step toward justice for Gray, there are some people who aren’t too pleased with the decisions being made. Now, Mosby is being scrutinized due to a number of factors regarding her personal life.

According to the Daily Mail, Baltimore defense attorney Warren Brown recently shared his concerns about Mosby’s orders, because he feels there are a number of questionable factors that may have contributed to the decision to charge the officers. Brown expressed concerns about Mosby’s close relationship with Baltimore attorney, William “Billy” Murphy.

Apparently, Murphy is Mosby’s mentor, but he’s also the attorney representing Freddy Gray’s family. It has also been reported that Murphy was one of the largest contributors for Mosby’s campaign, which took place four months ago."


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2058782/marilyn-mosby-fac...

The US has a system of elected DA's. It's not a system I would want in the Uk but, under that system, there is always going to be scope for mud-slinging and accusations that influence has been bought. However, it is always worth pointing out that no DA is ever going to qualify as a lawyer, let alone be elected, without knowing other local lawyers. The implication that Mposby is taking orders from Gray's attorney, without hard evidence of that, is just putting 2+2 together and coming up with 58.

There is no free society in the world where a healthy man can enter the custody of 6 police officers and come out with his spine almost severed in two, and, in the absence of clear evidence that it was an accident, no charges be brought. Those charges will be tested in court and the court will decide whether the case has been made.

If there has been an injustice in Baltimore it has been that Habeas Corpus was suspended so that hundreds of people could be kept in police custody for days with no charges brought.

What I find really disappointing about your attitude to this is that you see this as Bad Guys vs the Police, with no light and shade on either side. Unless people like you engage with this situation and try to understand the wider causes of these riots, the USA will continue to have these problems. This is a Black Rights issue, because Black people don't feel they get a fair deal from the police. Even if that perception were incorrect (and the stats suggest it isn't) it would need to be addressed, and riot squads, APCs and curfews is not the way to do that.

[Matt Harper]

Bluebarge said:

The US has a system of elected DA's. It's not a system I would want in the Uk but, under that system, there is always going to be scope for mud-slinging and accusations that influence has been bought. However, it is always worth pointing out that no DA is ever going to qualify as a lawyer, let alone be elected, without knowing other local lawyers. The implication that Mposby is taking orders from Gray's attorney, without hard evidence of that, is just putting 2+2 together and coming up with 58.

There is no free society in the world where a healthy man can enter the custody of 6 police officers and come out with his spine almost severed in two, and, in the absence of clear evidence that it was an accident, no charges be brought. Those charges will be tested in court and the court will decide whether the case has been made.

If there has been an injustice in Baltimore it has been that Habeas Corpus was suspended so that hundreds of people could be kept in police custody for days with no charges brought.

What I find really disappointing about your attitude to this is that you see this as Bad Guys vs the Police, with no light and shade on either side. Unless people like you engage with this situation and try to understand the wider causes of these riots, the USA will continue to have these problems. This is a Black Rights issue, because Black people don't feel they get a fair deal from the police. Even if that perception were incorrect (and the stats suggest it isn't) it would need to be addressed, and riot squads, APCs and curfews is not the way to do that.

I suspect that you may be assuming things about me based purely on your opposition to what you perceive to be my viewpoint. When I said there was a suggestion that..... I think you may have jumped to the conclusion that I was stating what I believe to be fact - I was not.

I am unaware of your experience regarding US culture in general, US culture specific to the 'under-privileged' and the attitudes, ethics and constraints trained into or imposed upon US law enforcement, so I'm not going to make similar assumptions about you.

I have lived in the US for around 15 years and my work dictates that I interact with a broad cross-section of American society (Qual Research) - and my daughter is a Sheriffs Deputy/Tactical Firearms Specialist/SWAT in a particularly high crime sector of the city we live in.

I like to think that I'm measured and reasonable in my outlook. My initial posting was in response to my feeling that this particular discussion was heavily biased toward the assumption (or perceived fact) that this guy was snatched off the street for no good reason, spirited away and murdered by a group of Baltimore cops. I think there could be an alternate and very different version of that chain of events.

The subsequent unrest/looting/attacks on law enforcement was predictable and appears to have been well organized. The powers that be in Baltimore sat on their hands and let it happen for a couple of nights - then offered up 6 cops as pay-back/in exchange for the looting to stop.
We now wait for the judicial process to take over (despite the State Prosecutor declaring that they are guilty).

Thankfully, I am not personally subjected to much risk from street crime - my awareness/experience comes from ride-along engagements with my daughter and her colleagues. Horrible, unjust and cruel things happen each and every day - life isn't fair. But that isn't really a justifiable excuse to set fire to your neighbors businesses, after pillaging them. No amount of hand-wringing and sociological posturing will stop people who have become comfortable and empowered by stealing rather than earning, preying upon the weak and addicted, feeling entitled to hand-outs, while complaining that the hand-outs are not generous enough and crying "foul" when their criminal activities get them in bother with the law.

Perhaps a good start might be if the largely black, under-privileged and overlooked would just stop murdering, raping and robbing each other, It seems that "Black Lives Matter" only in specific circumstances.

A no less troubling fact (and it is a fact) is that a lot more white people die in confrontations with US police than black people. Interestingly, a lot more US police are assaulted by black people than white people. That suggests perhaps that US police are actually trained to be more tolerant of assaults by black members of the public than white.

[anonymous-user]

Someone dying in custody is naturally a red flag and a comprehensive investigation needs to be undertaken. I'm certainly no expert in American post-police death investigations and the manner in which prosecutions amount, but I can't help but feel it's all happened a little too quickly.

The risk if these aren't strong charges is that they've just kicked the can down the road, and NG verdicts will result in more tension and disorder. The problem is the "community" make their mind up as soon as an incident occurs and it's a lose / lose for everyone, regardless of the lawfulness of the actions.

We experienced this with Duggan. Disorder based on a fatality. A perfectly lawful shooting but a community who won't accept that, nor any subsequent reviews / appeals and the consistent decisions they have come to.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Nothing like actually engaging with someone who has taken the time to write a detailed post of his experiences and opinions...

[dudleybloke]

Drug Wars in Baltimore: Reality Behind The Wire: https://youtu.be/zZmy8KWG9_Y

[Digga]

dudleybloke said:

The Wire

A superbly compelling piece of work. It taught me a huge amount about the culture of US gangs which, combined with my (fortunately limited) experience of gang wars here in the UK (I spent a year of student life commuting on foot through Hulme and Moss Side in Manchester whilst the locals were at war with the North Manchester, Cheetham Hill crew) really highlighted the relentless nature of the problem.

[carinaman]

La Liga said:

Someone dying in custody is naturally a red flag and a comprehensive investigation needs to be undertaken. I'm certainly no expert in American post-police death investigations and the manner in which prosecutions amount, but I can't help but feel it's all happened a little too quickly.

The risk if these aren't strong charges is that they've just kicked the can down the road, and NG verdicts will result in more tension and disorder. The problem is the "community" make their mind up as soon as an incident occurs and it's a lose / lose for everyone, regardless of the lawfulness of the actions.

We experienced this with Duggan. Disorder based on a fatality. A perfectly lawful shooting but a community who won't accept that, nor any subsequent reviews / appeals and the consistent decisions they have come to.

We have had kicking the can down the road in the UK, look at Thomas Orchard and the Tomlinson case.

Duggan's case was perfectly lawful? I don't know if he was shot because he was once in possession of a gun. Having been in possession of a gun and actually pointing it towards someone are different, a bit like a police officer can 'red dot' someone with a Taser without fully deploying it.

Duggan received street justice. He didn't get justice in a court by his peers.

The killing was lawful? Like the Saunders decision on Lord Janner and Judge Constance Briscoe and her own personal handwriting expert?

Hillsborough?

Just because a judge says something it doesn't make it lawful just as typing something on the Internet doesn't mean it's correct.

People doubt the police and judges because they've been caught out more than once rigging the system and telling porkies. If they then look like a garage that issues dodgy MoTs that's their problem for their previous conduct or form.

Edited by carinaman on Wednesday 6th May 20:40

[anonymous-user]

carinaman said:

We have had kicking the can down the road in the UK, look at Thomas Orchard and the Tomlinson case.

Both have / had charges brought after highly detailed investigations. Good comparisons, except they demonstrate the total opposite of the point I was making.

carinaman said:

Duggan's case was perfectly lawful?

Yep, do some searching.

carinaman said:

Duggan received street justice. He didn't get justice in a court by his peers.

Hazards of the job when you're an armed criminal.

[carinaman]

Guilty until proven innocent then. Difficult to prove ones innocence when you're dead isn't it.

He should have been tried in a court like other criminals. Why wasn't he?

[anonymous-user]

carinaman said:

Guilty until proven innocent then.

Nope, his actions never let it get to the stage any crimes could be tried. It was a case of using force to manage a threat and risk, not using force to 'punish' or dish out 'justice'. You frame it as the latter because it suits what you want to believe, but in reality it was the former.

carinaman said:

He should have been tried in a court like other criminals. Why wasn't he?

Generally, because he put armed officers in a situation where they used lethal force that adhered to the stricter "absolutely necessary" Human Rights Act threshold.

More specifically, because he had a firearm in his possession immediately before and / or at the time he was stopped.