Baltimore race riots
Discussion
Matt Harper said:
Having a daughter on the thin blue line - that's all, Paul. Depressing news.
At the risk of sounding crass, it's a different situation. Certainly in a city in the USA there has to be a reasonable expectation that a police officer is going to be shot at. They know that's the case when they sign up. It's sad, but that's the deal.Freddie Gray died for little other reason than being black. He didn't sign a contract asking to be put in harm's way, and when he was arrested by the police they had a duty of care to him in exactly the same way that they have a duty of care to everyone. But the very people who were supposed to be taking care of him opened the back door of their van to find his corpse lying there.
A young black man has been shot and severely injured while running from police in Baltimore today.
Early reports say a firearm was recovered from the scene.
Hopefully things won't kick off like before but there seems to be small numbers of people on the streets already.
https://youtu.be/LAJmg-eaZXA
Early reports say a firearm was recovered from the scene.
Hopefully things won't kick off like before but there seems to be small numbers of people on the streets already.
https://youtu.be/LAJmg-eaZXA
davepoth said:
At the risk of sounding crass, it's a different situation. Certainly in a city in the USA there has to be a reasonable expectation that a police officer is going to be shot at. They know that's the case when they sign up. It's sad, but that's the deal.
Freddie Gray died for little other reason than being black. He didn't sign a contract asking to be put in harm's way, and when he was arrested by the police they had a duty of care to him in exactly the same way that they have a duty of care to everyone. But the very people who were supposed to be taking care of him opened the back door of their van to find his corpse lying there.
When Freddie Gray "signed-up" for his long-standing criminal career, involving multiple arrests and several violent confrontations with police, where he and his crew were the aggressors, what reasonable expectation should he have had that his actions might one day lead to his harm or even demise? None, I presume.Freddie Gray died for little other reason than being black. He didn't sign a contract asking to be put in harm's way, and when he was arrested by the police they had a duty of care to him in exactly the same way that they have a duty of care to everyone. But the very people who were supposed to be taking care of him opened the back door of their van to find his corpse lying there.
You seem to have decided what the outcome of this is, well ahead of time too - how are you so "in the know" regarding the circumstances of his death?
It was a career criminal that deserved it?
Same as Mark Duggan then?
They should be tried in a court of law like everyone else.
Until the police can raise their standards they're not qualified to distribute justice on the streets.
6 people have been charged?
I think 6 people were under suspicion of the Thomas Orchard death, but three ended up getting charged.
The official line was 'Heart Attack'. Then an independent person at the Autopsy asked 'What are these marks around his face?' It then came out that he'd had an Emergency Restraint Belt placed around his head in custody.
Perhaps the 6 that were involved forgot to mention that fact eh?
Was it last year, 2014?, when his family finally got to see the video of Thomas Orchard's last moments in that cell in Exeter? It would seem from the news coverage that they had to admit to Thomas having dealings with the police before as part of some negotiation to see that CCTV footage.
Was it former police offer Peter Kirkham that Tweeted about Katie gobs
te Hopkins calling those crossing from Libya to Europe feral cockroaches and saying it was the anti-locution that features on the Allport Scale?
Has not the delightful Katie Hopkins since Tweeted that Ed Miliband is 'on the Spectrum'?
So growing up a troubled person that has come into contact with the police justifies him being snuffed out in a police cell does it?
'Well he's obviously mentally ill and wrong 'un so why care'?
The last police brutality I witnessed was to some young men for being a bit mouthy and supposedly 'disrespecting' the police. Big men getting heavy handed with drunken young men that could be teenagers. Heroes. That'll learn 'em aye?
A few more thousand positive, upbeat, happy clappy official police Tweets and that incident will just be a distant memory I am sure.
Respect is a two way street.
Same as Mark Duggan then?
They should be tried in a court of law like everyone else.
Until the police can raise their standards they're not qualified to distribute justice on the streets.
6 people have been charged?
I think 6 people were under suspicion of the Thomas Orchard death, but three ended up getting charged.
The official line was 'Heart Attack'. Then an independent person at the Autopsy asked 'What are these marks around his face?' It then came out that he'd had an Emergency Restraint Belt placed around his head in custody.
Perhaps the 6 that were involved forgot to mention that fact eh?
Was it last year, 2014?, when his family finally got to see the video of Thomas Orchard's last moments in that cell in Exeter? It would seem from the news coverage that they had to admit to Thomas having dealings with the police before as part of some negotiation to see that CCTV footage.
Was it former police offer Peter Kirkham that Tweeted about Katie gobs
te Hopkins calling those crossing from Libya to Europe feral cockroaches and saying it was the anti-locution that features on the Allport Scale?Has not the delightful Katie Hopkins since Tweeted that Ed Miliband is 'on the Spectrum'?
So growing up a troubled person that has come into contact with the police justifies him being snuffed out in a police cell does it?
'Well he's obviously mentally ill and wrong 'un so why care'?
The last police brutality I witnessed was to some young men for being a bit mouthy and supposedly 'disrespecting' the police. Big men getting heavy handed with drunken young men that could be teenagers. Heroes. That'll learn 'em aye?
A few more thousand positive, upbeat, happy clappy official police Tweets and that incident will just be a distant memory I am sure.
Respect is a two way street.
Six police officers, and one detainee that ends up with a severed spine?
No Taser to hand? Do US police not carry incapacitant spray? Perhaps career criminal Mr Gray was immune to it?
I thought some of the charges were for not treating the injured Mr Gray promptly once his injuries had been sustained?
Perhaps that's why I've made comparisons with the Thomas Orchard case? The 'Heart Attack' that was in reality a restraint belt placed around his face.
No Taser to hand? Do US police not carry incapacitant spray? Perhaps career criminal Mr Gray was immune to it?
I thought some of the charges were for not treating the injured Mr Gray promptly once his injuries had been sustained?
Perhaps that's why I've made comparisons with the Thomas Orchard case? The 'Heart Attack' that was in reality a restraint belt placed around his face.
carinaman said:
Six police officers, and one detainee that ends up with a severed spine?
No Taser to hand? Do US police not carry incapacitant spray? Perhaps career criminal Mr Gray was immune to it?
I thought some of the charges were for not treating the injured Mr Gray promptly once his injuries had been sustained?
Perhaps that's why I've made comparisons with the Thomas Orchard case? The 'Heart Attack' that was in reality a restraint belt placed around his face.
There is a suggestion that his injury was caused by coming into contact with an exposed bolt that protruded into the detention area of the vehicle he was transported in. The police officers who have been charged were not riding in the back of the vehicle - and the one charged with murder was a stand-in doing the driving for a bit of overtime. Interestingly, there was another detainee in the back who sustained no injuries whatsoever - so the theory that the driver deliberately 'rattled them around' seems less than plausible. The charges are as a result of a weak prosecutor (who is 'connected' to the victims lawyers) being held to ransom by a bunch of lawless looters and gang-bangers, who, left to their own devices would have burned their own city to the ground presumably. No Taser to hand? Do US police not carry incapacitant spray? Perhaps career criminal Mr Gray was immune to it?
I thought some of the charges were for not treating the injured Mr Gray promptly once his injuries had been sustained?
Perhaps that's why I've made comparisons with the Thomas Orchard case? The 'Heart Attack' that was in reality a restraint belt placed around his face.
Thanks Matt. I wasn't aware about the injured in transit explanation. I know some police vans used to transport detainees in parts of the UK have a toughened perspex partition between the crew and detainee area and if possible an officer is tasked with keeping an eye on the detainees through the perspex.
Perhaps I am too idealistic, but I think the if people with power end up letting their emotions and prejudices colour their decisions and actions then it risks not being about justice and risks being about something else.
I've heard some stuff about Baltimore, mainly post The Wire and how the industrial decline and then the scope for plundering the decent waterside land to be made into expensive properties for the well moneyed seems to be repeated in many places in the world. There's money to be made from the decent land that could be pocketed to the detriment of the local community or local councils.
I think part of my problem with classifying one group of people as 'bad' is that if the 'good' aren't really good, or as good as they like to portray themselves it just seems to be about stratification and justifications to treating those deemed to be bad badly.
'People who live in glass houses....
And 'Do unto others...
Perhaps I am too idealistic, but I think the if people with power end up letting their emotions and prejudices colour their decisions and actions then it risks not being about justice and risks being about something else.
I've heard some stuff about Baltimore, mainly post The Wire and how the industrial decline and then the scope for plundering the decent waterside land to be made into expensive properties for the well moneyed seems to be repeated in many places in the world. There's money to be made from the decent land that could be pocketed to the detriment of the local community or local councils.
I think part of my problem with classifying one group of people as 'bad' is that if the 'good' aren't really good, or as good as they like to portray themselves it just seems to be about stratification and justifications to treating those deemed to be bad badly.
'People who live in glass houses....
And 'Do unto others...
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 5th May 00:14
Kaj91 said:
David Simon on Baltimore’s Anguish
Freddie Gray, the drug war, and the decline of “real policing.”
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/davi...
Thank you for that link, I am reading it now.Freddie Gray, the drug war, and the decline of “real policing.”
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/davi...
dudleybloke said:
Thanks. It's a fair bit bigger than the little bottle of Pepper Spray they wear here. I was asking about incapacitant spray as I thought Mr Gray suffered the severed spine when he was being subdued or manhandled and I thought spraying was probably preferable to severing his spine.
Kaj91 said:
David Simon on Baltimore’s Anguish
Freddie Gray, the drug war, and the decline of “real policing.”
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/davi...
Interesting 'them and us' stuff in that article. Sadly I know a British police officer that's given it the 'This is our patch' line that's not entirely straight and truthful and heard a PCSO from the same place badmouthing the local population.Freddie Gray, the drug war, and the decline of “real policing.”
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/davi...
Matt Harper said:
There is a suggestion that his injury was caused by coming into contact with an exposed bolt that protruded into the detention area of the vehicle he was transported in. The police officers who have been charged were not riding in the back of the vehicle - and the one charged with murder was a stand-in doing the driving for a bit of overtime. Interestingly, there was another detainee in the back who sustained no injuries whatsoever - so the theory that the driver deliberately 'rattled them around' seems less than plausible. The charges are as a result of a weak prosecutor (who is 'connected' to the victims lawyers) being held to ransom by a bunch of lawless looters and gang-bangers, who, left to their own devices would have burned their own city to the ground presumably.
There's a whole load of assumptions in your post which may, or may not, turn out to be nonsense. The problem with the US prosecution system is that the DA and defense attornies spend a lot of time trailing "evidence" in the media before it is ever brought to the Court. So, each side has their say to influence the court of public opinion, but none of this eveidence can be truly believed until it has been tested in court. Then, and only then, will we know the truth of what happened.Among the many painful ironies in the current racial turmoil is that communities scattered across the country were disrupted by riots and looting because of the demonstrable lie that Michael Brown was shot in the back by a white policeman in Missouri -- but there was not nearly as much turmoil created by the demonstrable fact that a fleeing black man was shot dead by a white policeman in South Carolina.
Totally ignored was the fact that a black policeman in Alabama fatally shot an unarmed white teenager, and was cleared of any charges, at about the same time that a white policeman was cleared of charges in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.
In a world where the truth means so little, and headstrong preconceptions seem to be all that matter, what hope is there for rational words or rational behavior, much less mutual understanding across racial lines?
When the recorded fatal shooting of a fleeing man in South Carolina brought instant condemnation by whites and blacks alike, and by the most conservative as well as the most liberal commentators, that moment of mutual understanding was very fleeting, as if mutual understanding were something to be avoided, as a threat to a vision of "us against them" that was more popular.
That vision is nowhere more clearly expressed than in attempts to automatically depict whatever social problems exist in ghetto communities as being caused by the sins or negligence of whites, whether racism in general or a "legacy of slavery" in particular. Like most emotionally powerful visions, it is seldom, if ever, subjected to the test of evidence.
The "legacy of slavery" argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.
Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.
You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965.
We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact -- for those who still have some respect for facts -- black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, prior to 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less.
Murder rates among black males were going down -- repeat, DOWN -- during the much lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before. Most black children were raised in two-parent families prior to the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families.
Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States. The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period. Just read "Life at the Bottom," by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.
You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization -- including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain -- without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.
Non-judgmental subsidies of counterproductive lifestyles are treating people as if they were livestock, to be fed and tended by others in a welfare state -- and yet expecting them to develop as human beings have developed when facing the challenges of life themselves.
One key fact that keeps getting ignored is that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits every year since 1994. Behavior matters and facts matter, more than the prevailing social visions or political empires built on those visions.
Totally ignored was the fact that a black policeman in Alabama fatally shot an unarmed white teenager, and was cleared of any charges, at about the same time that a white policeman was cleared of charges in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.
In a world where the truth means so little, and headstrong preconceptions seem to be all that matter, what hope is there for rational words or rational behavior, much less mutual understanding across racial lines?
When the recorded fatal shooting of a fleeing man in South Carolina brought instant condemnation by whites and blacks alike, and by the most conservative as well as the most liberal commentators, that moment of mutual understanding was very fleeting, as if mutual understanding were something to be avoided, as a threat to a vision of "us against them" that was more popular.
That vision is nowhere more clearly expressed than in attempts to automatically depict whatever social problems exist in ghetto communities as being caused by the sins or negligence of whites, whether racism in general or a "legacy of slavery" in particular. Like most emotionally powerful visions, it is seldom, if ever, subjected to the test of evidence.
The "legacy of slavery" argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.
Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.
You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965.
We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact -- for those who still have some respect for facts -- black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, prior to 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less.
Murder rates among black males were going down -- repeat, DOWN -- during the much lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before. Most black children were raised in two-parent families prior to the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families.
Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States. The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period. Just read "Life at the Bottom," by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.
You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization -- including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain -- without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.
Non-judgmental subsidies of counterproductive lifestyles are treating people as if they were livestock, to be fed and tended by others in a welfare state -- and yet expecting them to develop as human beings have developed when facing the challenges of life themselves.
One key fact that keeps getting ignored is that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits every year since 1994. Behavior matters and facts matter, more than the prevailing social visions or political empires built on those visions.
carinaman said:
Kaj91's link is informative and relevant to the last two posts.
It was interesting, and somewhat touches on what I wrote earlier. This is largely a socio-economic issue and a cultural values problem that manifests where the powerful meet the powerless. It also ties in nicely with America's for-profit prison system. I think the "war on drugs" has a lot to do with creating the socio-economic conditions which are an obvious contributor.
Nixon has a lot to answer for.
http://www.alternet.org/story/17422/the_nixon_tape...
Nixon has a lot to answer for.
http://www.alternet.org/story/17422/the_nixon_tape...
scherzkeks said:
It also ties in nicely with America's for-profit prison system.
It also ties in nicely with stats chasing feckwittery that's so prevalent in the public sector in Britain. I'm trying to compare to what I've seen in the private sector and the most obvious comparison would be sandbagging a massive order from a household name so it drops in the following financial year rather than it dropping in the current year when sales quota has already been reached. My next employer had a 'kicker' so any commission ramped up at a steeper rate once the annual sales target had been attained, I guess as an incentive to reach target and not be disincentivised by exceeding it.
I think it's about 3/4 of the way through that article where it mentions cooking the crime stats books where it says that O'Malley regime I think it said looked back at the previous administration crime stats and pulled them to pieces to show that they'd been over counting crimes so as to further improve their own figures. So they changed the record that was in place when they took office to make their cooked crime stats appear even better.
I know a Teacher and it seems they've had to change schools due to being newly qualified and the way they're employed. It seems the school they've joined has just lost a Headmaster and a crony who has taken up the Headmaster's job at the school my teacher friend has just left. It seems the new broom has been going around with their side kick checking up on Teachers instilling a climate of fear and generally creating a negative work environment. My Teacher friend says it's obvious what they're doing, they're trying to upset performance of the incumbent Teachers and therefore the school so they can then say 'Oh look, there were all of these problems, but over the last X years, we have improved this, that and the other'. So it could seem the education of kids is being disrupted to manipulate and massage statistics of dubious merit.
Wasn't there also a school towards the middle but more towards the East side in the US where Teachers were found to be giving overly generous marks to their kids so their attainment scores were higher than they were for some State or National benchmark with the Teachers being pressured by the schools that employed them to improve the grades.
Wasn't it also uncovered that the US military unit in the bunker with the Access codes to the Nukes were also frigging their periodic assessment results too?
We're a bunch of sick apes deluding ourselves with all this stats nonsense. Stats fiddling is a bigger danger to human sustainability than Climate Change?
Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 5th May 13:10
carinaman said:
It also ties in nicely with stats chasing feckwittery that's so prevalent in the public sector in Britain.
I'm trying to compare to what I've seen in the private sector
Accountancy would be a good place to start. Many clever ways to make things look better than they are. When taken to extremes check out the likes of Tesco. I'm trying to compare to what I've seen in the private sector
I'm finding it hard to compare public-sector data manipulation with the scale and potential the private is capable of. It took some fancy statistical footwork to put us in the last recession, for example.
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