Election result is now abundantly clear

[Mr Whippy]

Ridgemont said:

Not sure your point being.

UKIP is possiibly shipping votes in 3 direction but they are not equal. The Tories marginal battles are disproportionally hit by Ukipery;
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/...

Which just shows how easily Conservatives could pick up easy votes. Be a bit clearer on Europe.

UKIP show its a big issue for voters and they're the perfect ones to understand the EU issues with their mep count.

So the question is WHY are cons so adamant to join EU if lots of people may want to leave? Cronyism at its best.

Lying cronies, another reason to avoid voting for them.

I'd rather the UK go the way of Greece under Labour in the EU, and have a chance of a Phoenix independent UK rising from the ashes in a generation... than vote for crony liar pigs. Ethics and all that. I'm not one for short term gratification. The UK and worlds issues go beyond quick fixes.

[IainT]

Twilkes said:

IainT said:

if UKIP get the forecast 13% of the vote on the 7th they should have 13% of the MPs

How would you allocate this 13% of MPs? Would you abolish constituency representation? Would people vote for a party, rather than an individual like they do now?

Might be enlightening to do a little research into how PR works in many countries. In Sweden, for example, in effect your vote is regional (effectively county level) and proportional.

Even if we ended up with PR and constituencies it's not so much of an issue - you'd still have a constituency MP and, given you've a good chance of getting an MP you didn't vote for, it's not really relevant. most people vote party at general elections, not personality.

To turn it around a little - how is the current system fair and reasonable?

What we would potentially lose is the Independents - Sweden has a 4% rule - nationally a party has to gain 4% of the vote to be counted in the MP allocation stage.

[IainT]

Mr Whippy said:

UKIPs stance isn't xenophobic, it's simply no to being in a union.

And the difference between the U in UK and EU is? Why were UKIP not supporting the SNP recently?

[otolith]

IainT said:

And the difference between the U in UK and EU is? Why were UKIP not supporting the SNP recently?

Cultural and political homogeneity?

[Mr Whippy]

IainT said:

And the difference between the U in UK and EU is? Why were UKIP not supporting the SNP recently?

UK is United Kingdom which is a fairly well proven affair.

EU is a failing affair before it's even really got going?

[simoid]

IainT said:

And the difference between the U in UK and EU is? Why were UKIP not supporting the SNP recently?

Economically much different.

(From a UKer, not a UKIPper)

[IainT]

otolith said:

IainT said:

And the difference between the U in UK and EU is? Why were UKIP not supporting the SNP recently?

Cultural and political homogeneity?

Not if you listen to the SNP and UKIP rhetoric on the subjects.

I happen to believe in the UK, less so in the EU however many of the arguments for and against either are the same. I thin our current level of involvement in the EU is about right. Some seem to think that we will be forced into full political and economic union, maybe the EU will try to do that but toat doesn't mean it'll happen.

The UK still has the right to self-determination unlike the Scots...

[otolith]

IainT said:

otolith said:

IainT said:

And the difference between the U in UK and EU is? Why were UKIP not supporting the SNP recently?

Cultural and political homogeneity?

Not if you listen to the SNP and UKIP rhetoric on the subjects.

I happen to believe in the UK, less so in the EU however many of the arguments for and against either are the same. I thin our current level of involvement in the EU is about right. Some seem to think that we will be forced into full political and economic union, maybe the EU will try to do that but toat doesn't mean it'll happen.

The UK still has the right to self-determination unlike the Scots...

The SNP position is harder to defend, given that they want to exit from the smaller union (which is on the trajectory of more devolution) and remain in the larger one (which is headed in the opposite direction). Ultimately, if you are going to get together with a group of other people and decide amongst you how you are all going to live, the size of the group and the homogeneity of it determines how many of the people you will be able to please, how much of the time. Perhaps 300 million people from 28 countries is the right size. Perhaps 60 million from one country. Perhaps 10 million from one part of a country. Perhaps Yorkshire should make a UDI.

[4v6]

IainT said:

What's even more scary is that folks like you seem to think the holy institution that is UKIP is going to be any different where the reality is they'll be worse in every respect - adding incompetence to incoherence with a fat dose of self-interest and extended old-boys networking.

And thats different to what we currently enjoy is it?

IainT said:

I think you're utterly naive to put Farage and Co up on a pedestal with their random pick'n'mix policies not chosen to be workable but simple to be populist no matter the cost.

Wheres your head been since the election campaign kicked off precisely?
Have all the "promises" the main three have been spunking out escaped your attention?
Theres no difference there to what youve accused ukip of.

IainT said:

The UK leaving Europe makes no more sense than Scotland leaving the UK - UKIPs opposing views on the two issues show how muddle-headed they are.

What a cock headed view. The very inescapable fact is we were never consulted on joining any European Union, we were railroaded into it by such as yourself with your own interests at the centre of it all, so do shove that argument where the sun dont shine.
I want my say on self determination, just like the Scots have!
Who do you think you are to deny the wishes of the public?
This is OUR country not the EU and its unelected Kommissars, its OUR place to say what we want and how we want it run.

IainT said:

I've not fallen for any traps - I know our politicians can be held to a higher level than they are and that no party is the solution.

Then why claim the torys are some kind of solution?

IainT said:

If I were writing a report card it'd resemble many of mine from the 80s - "could do better". What I do think is that the Tories are the least worst of the lot and, in coalition with the Lib Dems we actually have something that's working better than we've had.

Have you been quaffing brake fluid again?
"least worst"?
What kind of standard is that to base your bloody vote on?

IainT said:

Long-term a move to consensus politics will be good for the country.

Nope the long term solution is to start from the beginning and remove all the liars from the system.

[otolith]

4v6 said:

Have you been quaffing brake fluid again?
"least worst"?
What kind of standard is that to base your bloody vote on?

South Park nailed it.

[IainT]

4v6 said:

Who do you think you are to deny the wishes of the public?

I'm a voting member of the public and, despite your desperate rhetoric, I'm not seeking to deny the wishes of the public. The ballot box will have it's say on the matter.

UKIP, with their main focus being EU-exit, will get, at most, 13% of the UK vote. If anything it's that tail trying to wag the dog. Of the remaining 87% some will want to leave the EU but not enough to support the party that would guarantee it. It's not an important enough issue to them to change their vote or they have too little confidence in the rest of UKIP policy to risk the switch.

Even if a proportion equal to the entire UKIP vote is EU-exit that would be 26% of the electorate - that's not the majority and why should they expect to deny the wishes of the majority?

Of course it's far more nuanced than that. Most of us would resist greater centralisation of power to the EU, many would rather pull more back. The answer will depend on the question - in/out would get a more pro-EU answer then 'should the UK have control of xyz'.

[confused_buyer]

IainT said:

. Of the remaining 87% some will want to leave the EU but not enough to support the party that would guarantee it. It's not an important enough issue to them to change their vote or they have too little confidence in the rest of UKIP policy to risk the switch.

UKIP is in no way offering a guarantee on leaving the EU. They are offering a referendum to leave the EU which isn't the same thing.

There is no particualrly guarentee that the UK will/would vote to leave the EU if given such a vote and, in fact, most research indicates they probably wouldn't.

[IainT]

confused_buyer said:

IainT said:

. Of the remaining 87% some will want to leave the EU but not enough to support the party that would guarantee it. It's not an important enough issue to them to change their vote or they have too little confidence in the rest of UKIP policy to risk the switch.

UKIP is in no way offering a guarantee on leaving the EU. They are offering a referendum to leave the EU which isn't the same thing.

There is no particualrly guarentee that the UK will/would vote to leave the EU if given such a vote and, in fact, most research indicates they probably wouldn't.

Yet I'm being accused of denying the will of the people by a rabid UKIP supporter. As if I have that kind of power... I wish

How is the UKIP referendum promise different from the Tory one?

[confused_buyer]

IainT said:

How is the UKIP referendum promise different from the Tory one?

You've got me. As far as I can tell UKIP are saying referendum 2015/16 and Tories by end of 2017.

A referendum whether called by UKIP or Tories will be very hard fought and those who want to stay in the EU will not simply roll up and not bother campaigning for it. UKIP seem to almost consider it a foregone conclusion if they call one. It isn't and most evidence points towards the UK choosing to stay, albeit reluctantly.

[Axionknight]

IainT said:

I'm a voting member of the public and, despite your desperate rhetoric, I'm not seeking to deny the wishes of the public. The ballot box will have it's say on the matter.

UKIP, with their main focus being EU-exit, will get, at most, 13% of the UK vote. If anything it's that tail trying to wag the dog. Of the remaining 87% some will want to leave the EU but not enough to support the party that would guarantee it. It's not an important enough issue to them to change their vote or they have too little confidence in the rest of UKIP policy to risk the switch.

Even if a proportion equal to the entire UKIP vote is EU-exit that would be 26% of the electorate - that's not the majority and why should they expect to deny the wishes of the majority?

Of course it's far more nuanced than that. Most of us would resist greater centralisation of power to the EU, many would rather pull more back. The answer will depend on the question - in/out would get a more pro-EU answer then 'should the UK have control of xyz'.

They aren't a single issue party though so what you are saying is basically a moot point.

[IainT]

Axionknight said:

They aren't a single issue party though so what you are saying is basically a moot point.

Granted they've had to come up with some more policies to try to convince the electorate that they deserve power but they're still the UK Independence Party.

You also miss the real point - I'm accused of having some super-power to deny the UK population what they really want - EU-exit. My point is that it's through democracy that the will of the people is honoured. Unless you're Scottish.

Edited by IainT on Wednesday 29th April 11:56

[Timmy40]

confused_buyer said:

It isn't and most evidence points towards the UK choosing to stay, albeit reluctantly.

I agree.

Which is why I'm somewhat bemused by the pro EU camps rabid opposition to having a referendum. Lets have one. If the UK votes to stay in, that's it, the anti EU brigade will then have to put up and shut up.

[confused_buyer]

Timmy40 said:

I agree.

Which is why I'm somewhat bemused by the pro EU camps rabid opposition to having a referendum. Lets have one. If the UK votes to stay in, that's it, the anti EU brigade will then have to put up and shut up.

I suspect their concern is it becoming a never-rendum a la the SNP but in principle I agree with you, it is time to clear the air. Let's get it done so everyone can move on.

I actually think Cameron is treated a bit unfairly over the EU. I'm not a fan of the bloke frankly but I can't see why UKIP and some Tories get so vexed over what he hasn't delivered on EU wise:

(1) He never promised a EU referendum at the last election anyway, either as a majority or coalition so I fail to see the big surprise when there wasn't one.
(2) The only party which had a referendum in their 2010 manifesto (UKIP apart) were the LibDems. They then voted one down in the Commons so I can't see how on earth Cameron could have got a referendum through the House in 2010-2015 even if he wanted to.
(3) There are the usual mumblings over the EU Constituion / Lisbon promise but that was ratified in June 2008 so I can't see how a referendum in 2010 on what was already an irrevocable international treaty was meant to do. You can't simply break internation treaties you have signed up for - and certainly not the country which established international law in the first place. Chaos would be the result. You may as well have had a referendum in 2010 on Indian Independence for all the point of it.

So what has Cameron actually done on the EU apart from not having a meaningless referendum on a ship which had sailed 2 years previously?

If Cameron gets a majority he will have to have a referendum in 2017. The Conservatives will split if he doesn't.

For all that I don't really like him, in practice UKIP haven't got a hope in hell of being in any position to deliver a referendum so really, if you want one, Cameron/Tories are on the only current game in town.

[eldar]

IainT said:

Yet I'm being accused of denying the will of the people by a rabid UKIP supporter. As if I have that kind of power... I wish

How is the UKIP referendum promise different from the Tory one?

The last time the tories promised a referendum regarding Europe, it didn't happen. Trusting them to deliver is optimisim over experience, at best.

[confused_buyer]

eldar said:

The last time the tories promised a referendum regarding Europe, it didn't happen. Trusting them to deliver is optimisim over experience, at best.

That ship sailed on June 18 2008.