Election result is now abundantly clear

[Mr Whippy]

HonestIago said:

UKIP voters are some of the most resolute out there and will not be "returning" to the Tories. A majority of them aren't even ex-Tory voters, a great number have never voted before or at least haven't done so in decades.

The ONLY reason an EU referendum is on the table from the Tories is UKIP. Admittedly I would rather see Camoron than Milipede in number 10 but by voting Tory I would be effectively endorsing what the party has become, and I can't do that with a clear conscience. As such I'm voting UKIP because they best represent my views...it is not my fault that the Tories no longer appeal to me. To vote tactically is to vote for the status quo.

Well said, and same here.

Of all the people Farage is the only one who talks and tells the truth.

The rest just talk and lie or distort concerns and then answer a different question.


If I could vote UKIP 1st, Cons 2nd, I would... then at least if UKIP don't get majorities, then cons could step in where required... but since we have to vote in this flawed stupid system but somehow be able to sleep at night with our conscience intact, then UKIP have to be it.

I'm not going to give the Conservatives the pleasure of getting my vote just because they're the least st of the remaining parties. They don't deserve that. If they truly believed in democracy and giving people a vote on Europe, they'd have made the appropriate changes by now (prop representation etc), and had referendum on Europe by now too.


Dave

[IainT]

Mr Whippy said:

Of all the people Farage is the only one who talks and tells the truth.

Naive at best.

[Mr Whippy]

IainT said:

Much is made of the 'wealth gap' between the very rich and the rest of us. On first inspection it seems a terrible injustice but the simple fact that there are fewer (as a percentage) people in true poverty now than at any point is overlooked. If the price of hauling the bottom of society up to a decent level is a few people being so wealthy they don't have a chance of spending it then that's great. The price for driving them away with asset grabs - as advocated by Labour and SNP - is an inability to bring those at the bottom up and everyone else dropping too.

Tory fairness is everyone having a chance.
Labour fairness is bringing all of us down to a lowest common denominator. Except themselves.

Another non-issue to distract you from the neo-commie EU we're about to join.

Trident, £5 billion a year either way. Non-issue of gargantuan proportions.

£1.4Tn debt, and reducing the deficit by +/- £10billion a year give or take, no real difference in the bigger picture.

All mostly ignoring the huge unfunded public sector liabilities in pensions etc, which is several £Tn more.


The UK is in deep st if the economy stays moving nowhere, more so if we keep borrowing even a penny more money to keep artificial spending going at the next generations cost.


But hey, best vote on who will rearrange the deck chairs best while the ship sinks... which is essentially what the main parties are offering you.

[HonestIago]

fblm said:

HonestIago said:

UKIP voters...A majority of them aren't even ex-Tory voters...

Is that true? (Genuine question - I don't know, doesn't seem like it)

Look at the first line graph here:

http://may2015.com/featured/ukippers-are-likely-to...

From my past reading I have in my head that about 40% of current Ukippers are ex Tory voters but can't say for certain.

[Mr Whippy]

IainT said:

Naive at best.

So tell me what is/was a lie.

Dave

[anonymous-user]

HonestIago said:

http://may2015.com/featured/ukippers-are-likely-to...

Interesting thanks, makes sense.

[IainT]

Mr Whippy said:

IainT said:

Naive at best.

So tell me what is/was a lie.

Dave

The expectation that he'd stick to his pledges is naive at the very best. He'll never have significant power so can promise the moon on a stick without repercussion.

[HonestIago]

IainT said:

Mr Whippy said:

Of all the people Farage is the only one who talks and tells the truth.

Naive at best.

Farage answers questions with answers instead of spin, the same cannot be said for any other political leader in the UK.

[IainT]

Mr Whippy said:

Another non-issue to distract you from the neo-commie EU we're about to join.

wibble

Or to add more meat to that... we're already members. You might have missed that while hiding in your bunker preparing your tin-foil hat.

The Tories certainly have no plans for further integration and, although vaguely defined, plans to negotiate a repatriation of powers. That might work, it might not but they are committed to an in-out referendum after that negotiation even if the EU says 'non'.

I don't recall seeing any plans for Labour to enter currency integration.

No-one else will have enough power to influence change. UKIPs xenophobic EU stance is, at best, shared by ~13% of the UK populace so you're hardly representing the British will.

[wc98]

Mr Whippy said:

HonestIago said:

UKIP voters are some of the most resolute out there and will not be "returning" to the Tories. A majority of them aren't even ex-Tory voters, a great number have never voted before or at least haven't done so in decades.

The ONLY reason an EU referendum is on the table from the Tories is UKIP. Admittedly I would rather see Camoron than Milipede in number 10 but by voting Tory I would be effectively endorsing what the party has become, and I can't do that with a clear conscience. As such I'm voting UKIP because they best represent my views...it is not my fault that the Tories no longer appeal to me. To vote tactically is to vote for the status quo.

Well said, and same here.

Of all the people Farage is the only one who talks and tells the truth.

The rest just talk and lie or distort concerns and then answer a different question.


If I could vote UKIP 1st, Cons 2nd, I would... then at least if UKIP don't get majorities, then cons could step in where required... but since we have to vote in this flawed stupid system but somehow be able to sleep at night with our conscience intact, then UKIP have to be it.

I'm not going to give the Conservatives the pleasure of getting my vote just because they're the least st of the remaining parties. They don't deserve that. If they truly believed in democracy and giving people a vote on Europe, they'd have made the appropriate changes by now (prop representation etc), and had referendum on Europe by now too.


Dave

agreed , i will never vote liblabcon again.

[TEKNOPUG]

IainT said:

TEKNOPUG said:

If the Tories/Labour lose many voters to UKIP, blame the parties, not the voters.

This is absolutely the case but we've seen the contempt for voters wishes from the SNP, why should any party, UKIP included, treat the voter as anything but a means to an end?

Well I guess that both parties run the very real risk of not gaining a majority victory, due to voters switching to UKIP. So in future, they may consider incorporating some of UKIP's policy ideas in order to win these voters back.

For example, if either main party promised an EU referendum in the next parliament, then I expect that they'd have a comfortable majority come May 8th.

[IainT]

TEKNOPUG said:

IainT said:

TEKNOPUG said:

If the Tories/Labour lose many voters to UKIP, blame the parties, not the voters.

This is absolutely the case but we've seen the contempt for voters wishes from the SNP, why should any party, UKIP included, treat the voter as anything but a means to an end?

Well I guess that both parties run the very real risk of not gaining a majority victory, due to voters switching to UKIP. So in future, they may consider incorporating some of UKIP's policy ideas in order to win these voters back.

Oddly enough, when the Tories have moved to embrace UKIP-styled policies they're lambasted by Kippers for stealing them... ho hum.

[HonestIago]

IainT said:

wibble

Or to add more meat to that... we're already members. You might have missed that while hiding in your bunker preparing your tin-foil hat.

The Tories certainly have no plans for further integration and, although vaguely defined, plans to negotiate a repatriation of powers. That might work, it might not but they are committed to an in-out referendum after that negotiation even if the EU says 'non'.

I don't recall seeing any plans for Labour to enter currency integration.

No-one else will have enough power to influence change. UKIPs xenophobic EU stance is, at best, shared by ~13% of the UK populace so you're hardly representing the British will.

There is nothing xenophobic about not wanting undemocratic political union as opposed to governing as a sovereign and democratic country.

You really believe that a)only 13% of the electorate support UKIP AND/OR b) only 13% have an anti-EU stance? ...and you referred to another poster earlier in the thread as naive?!

[2013BRM]

HonestIago said:

IainT said:

Mr Whippy said:

Of all the people Farage is the only one who talks and tells the truth.

Naive at best.

Farage answers questions with answers instead of spin, the same cannot be said for any other political leader in the UK.

N Sturgeon has been accused of answering questions directly too

[IainT]

Before we get too far down the rabbit-hole of having dare to criticize holy-UKIP on PH it should be noted that I think our political system is utterly bankrupt - if UKIP get the forecast 13% of the vote on the 7th they should have 13% of the MPs.

I can understand UKIP voters frustration.

[otolith]

Beati Dogu said:

Perhaps it'll be a repeat of 1992, where many (small c) conservative people lied to pollsters. The so called Shy Tory Factor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shy_Tory_Factor

Wonder if there are shy kippers?

[Einion Yrth]

otolith said:

Wonder if there are shy kippers?

My personal suspicion is that there are quite a few; not, for obvious reasons, terribly easy to prove though.

[Mr Whippy]

IainT said:

wibble

Or to add more meat to that... we're already members. You might have missed that while hiding in your bunker preparing your tin-foil hat.

The Tories certainly have no plans for further integration and, although vaguely defined, plans to negotiate a repatriation of powers. That might work, it might not but they are committed to an in-out referendum after that negotiation even if the EU says 'non'.

I don't recall seeing any plans for Labour to enter currency integration.

No-one else will have enough power to influence change. UKIPs xenophobic EU stance is, at best, shared by ~13% of the UK populace so you're hardly representing the British will.

The EU mandate is ever closer union.

So not pulling out, means going further in each year.

Renegotiate. You do realise that is just politico speak for actually doing nothing? What happened last time we renegotiated the billions we owed the EU due to incorrectly calculated figures over many years? Net outcome was the same, despite lots of media bluster that Cameron was "standing up to Europe"


EU mandate is ever closer union. That means currency integration. The plan isn't to just stay put indefinitely. We're going in further unless we stop altogether and pull out. There is no 'static' option...
I'd personally like a static option, but there isn't one. It's either continually more in, or out.


UKIPs stance isn't xenophobic, it's simply no to being in a union.

Is every other independent country in the world a xenophobe because they haven't combined with other nations around them?



I don't care whose will I share. I want out of the EU. I don't want my children and their children to live in an EU super communist state in near poverty.

If 83% of people in the UK want that, then great, vote Tory or Labour or whoever you want. Democracy in action... for a time at least.

I'll be off to Iceland by that time. At least they're engaging with truly progressive politics, rather than devolving into the old socialist ways.

[otolith]

Einion Yrth said:

otolith said:

Wonder if there are shy kippers?

My personal suspicion is that there are quite a few; not, for obvious reasons, terribly easy to prove though.

Interesting;

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archive...

[Ridgemont]

Mr Whippy said:

The EU mandate is ever closer union.

So not pulling out, means going further in each year.

Renegotiate. You do realise that is just politico speak for actually doing nothing? What happened last time we renegotiated the billions we owed the EU due to incorrectly calculated figures over many years? Net outcome was the same, despite lots of media bluster that Cameron was "standing up to Europe"


EU mandate is ever closer union. That means currency integration. The plan isn't to just stay put indefinitely. We're going in further unless we stop altogether and pull out. There is no 'static' option...
I'd personally like a static option, but there isn't one. It's either continually more in, or out.


UKIPs stance isn't xenophobic, it's simply no to being in a union.

<snip>

So while your assessment of the EU is correct, the solution isn't.

UKIP is hopelessly compromised. For a start its stance *is* xenophobic. Not on the basis of its hostility to the EU but instead the fact it is quite deliberately utilising immigration as a vote grabber, and in the process attracting the worst detritus of the EDL and the BNP.

That way lies madness.

Furthermore its approach is hopeless. Pretty much the plan is to either repeal the European act, and possibly (though this only became clear with the last manifesto) invoke article 50. And then start negotiating). This is guaranteed to corral the pro EU vote to the extent that FUD will destroy any attempt to get out.

It might be worth checking out Richard North's site (eureferendum.com), as he knows most of the senior cohort in UKIP, is completely dismissive of their approach, and helpfully has a plan. Which might work. UKIP has no plan, and with its tactic of getting millions of voters to piss away their vote for perhaps 2 seats max, is gifting that nutwad Miliband the premiership. And frankly I'm stting myself regards the potential damage that no-mark could do this country.

Because, returning to the topic of thread, there *is* a meaningful difference between the 'liblabcon' as the kippers casually dismiss the traditional parties. The difference is most stark regarding credibility on the international markets, and we're still in £90bn of the deficit brown stuff. Day 1 of the Miliband era will see many chickens come home to roost, and I despair that so called patriots from the UKIP tendency see that as potentially an outcome to be embraced.