Election result is now abundantly clear
Discussion
Tactically, immigration is UKIP's trump card simply because uncontrolled intra-EU migration is an absolute, non-negotiable condition of EU membership. If you are pro-EU membership, you are pro-unlimited migration within it. That's why they have made it such a focus of their campaign, there is nothing pro-EU parties can say to counter it other than "suck it up" and "actually you should be grateful".
otolith said:
Tactically, immigration is UKIP's trump card simply because uncontrolled intra-EU migration is an absolute, non-negotiable condition of EU membership. If you are pro-EU membership, you are pro-unlimited migration within it. That's why they have made it such a focus of their campaign, there is nothing pro-EU parties can say to counter it other than "suck it up" and "actually you should be grateful".
Well they do, they try to counter it by implying UKIP are facists and that controlled immigration is racist.....whilst oddly ignoring the fact that this is precisely what Canada, Australia, the US and many other countries do. Ridgemont said:
UKIP is hopelessly compromised. For a start its stance *is* xenophobic. Not on the basis of its hostility to the EU but instead the fact it is quite deliberately utilising immigration as a vote grabber, and in the process attracting the worst detritus of the EDL and the BNP.
your argument does not support this.if UKIP were xenophobic, they would want to stop all immigration period.
you can argue the current system with it's bias towards EU countries is xenophobic.
Ridgemont said:
So while your assessment of the EU is correct, the solution isn't.
UKIP is hopelessly compromised. For a start its stance *is* xenophobic. Not on the basis of its hostility to the EU but instead the fact it is quite deliberately utilising immigration as a vote grabber, and in the process attracting the worst detritus of the EDL and the BNP.
That way lies madness.
Furthermore its approach is hopeless. Pretty much the plan is to either repeal the European act, and possibly (though this only became clear with the last manifesto) invoke article 50. And then start negotiating). This is guaranteed to corral the pro EU vote to the extent that FUD will destroy any attempt to get out.
It might be worth checking out Richard North's site (eureferendum.com), as he knows most of the senior cohort in UKIP, is completely dismissive of their approach, and helpfully has a plan. Which might work. UKIP has no plan, and with its tactic of getting millions of voters to piss away their vote for perhaps 2 seats max, is gifting that nutwad Miliband the premiership. And frankly I'm s
tting myself regards the potential damage that no-mark could do this country.
Because, returning to the topic of thread, there *is* a meaningful difference between the 'liblabcon' as the kippers casually dismiss the traditional parties. The difference is most stark regarding credibility on the international markets, and we're still in £90bn of the deficit brown stuff. Day 1 of the Miliband era will see many chickens come home to roost, and I despair that so called patriots from the UKIP tendency see that as potentially an outcome to be embraced.
So my best vote is to vote for Cons, who will continue to give their big business mates tax avoidance loopholes, despite clamping down on normal tax avoiders as if they are terrorists.UKIP is hopelessly compromised. For a start its stance *is* xenophobic. Not on the basis of its hostility to the EU but instead the fact it is quite deliberately utilising immigration as a vote grabber, and in the process attracting the worst detritus of the EDL and the BNP.
That way lies madness.
Furthermore its approach is hopeless. Pretty much the plan is to either repeal the European act, and possibly (though this only became clear with the last manifesto) invoke article 50. And then start negotiating). This is guaranteed to corral the pro EU vote to the extent that FUD will destroy any attempt to get out.
It might be worth checking out Richard North's site (eureferendum.com), as he knows most of the senior cohort in UKIP, is completely dismissive of their approach, and helpfully has a plan. Which might work. UKIP has no plan, and with its tactic of getting millions of voters to piss away their vote for perhaps 2 seats max, is gifting that nutwad Miliband the premiership. And frankly I'm s
tting myself regards the potential damage that no-mark could do this country. Because, returning to the topic of thread, there *is* a meaningful difference between the 'liblabcon' as the kippers casually dismiss the traditional parties. The difference is most stark regarding credibility on the international markets, and we're still in £90bn of the deficit brown stuff. Day 1 of the Miliband era will see many chickens come home to roost, and I despair that so called patriots from the UKIP tendency see that as potentially an outcome to be embraced.
Cons who will probably take us at full speed into the EU which I don't want to be in?
Marginally change the rate at which the debt grows, but do nothing real to address the fundamental issues of that debt burden.
I know you're right... but if any of the political parties really did care, they'd have implemented the changes they've all discussed for decades, but done little about. Ie, proportional representation would mean people could get more democracy for their vote. Not happened.
Election boundaries are out of place, but haven't been changed. Party politics destroying freedom to vote, and causing people like us to vote Tory, rather than who we WANT to vote for, because we have to vote for who we don't want, to make sure someone else we don't want doesn't get in.
Xenophobia is rife in politics. UKIP just are not as smart to keep it under wraps as well as the others.
Labour appeals to the feckless morons who drain our society, so no better than UKIP appealing to xenophobes for a few more votes. They're all just as s
t and bad as each other.Sorry, you've not won me over to thinking any vote is a worthwhile one. No one else is giving a solid choice on Europe except UKIP, so that is where my vote goes.
Watching this s
t show:https://www.youtube.com/user/UKIPmeps/videos
Makes me wonder why ANYONE wants to be in there, given all the other bad stuff going on with Greece and capital controls and NIRP. Do we really want to be involved in that?
Out with UKIP, messily if that is what it takes... or bust with Labour I say. I'll be moving to xenophobic Iceland
Timmy40 said:
otolith said:
Tactically, immigration is UKIP's trump card simply because uncontrolled intra-EU migration is an absolute, non-negotiable condition of EU membership. If you are pro-EU membership, you are pro-unlimited migration within it. That's why they have made it such a focus of their campaign, there is nothing pro-EU parties can say to counter it other than "suck it up" and "actually you should be grateful".
Well they do, they try to counter it by implying UKIP are facists and that controlled immigration is racist.....whilst oddly ignoring the fact that this is precisely what Canada, Australia, the US and many other countries do. Scuffers said:
your argument does not support this.
if UKIP were xenophobic, they would want to stop all immigration period.
you can argue the current system with it's bias towards EU countries is xenophobic.
There's your problem; a perfectly sound logical opinion of almost Enoch Powellian rectitude. Which ignores the actual ground war of dog whistle nonsense, brown faces on the M1, foreign languages on the tube, numbers of ethnics in a manifesto etc etcif UKIP were xenophobic, they would want to stop all immigration period.
you can argue the current system with it's bias towards EU countries is xenophobic.
A high principle utterly confounded by reality and your fellow travellers, of which the majority of public opinion would cross the road to avoid. Which is why UKIP is stuck at 15% ish. Good luck getting out of the EU with those numbers.
Ridgemont said:
So while your assessment of the EU is correct, the solution isn't.
UKIP is hopelessly compromised. For a start its stance *is* xenophobic. Not on the basis of its hostility to the EU but instead the fact it is quite deliberately utilising immigration as a vote grabber, and in the process attracting the worst detritus of the EDL and the BNP.
That way lies madness.
Furthermore its approach is hopeless. Pretty much the plan is to either repeal the European act, and possibly (though this only became clear with the last manifesto) invoke article 50. And then start negotiating). This is guaranteed to corral the pro EU vote to the extent that FUD will destroy any attempt to get out.
It might be worth checking out Richard North's site (eureferendum.com), as he knows most of the senior cohort in UKIP, is completely dismissive of their approach, and helpfully has a plan. Which might work. UKIP has no plan, and with its tactic of getting millions of voters to piss away their vote for perhaps 2 seats max, is gifting that nutwad Miliband the premiership. And frankly I'm stting myself regards the potential damage that no-mark could do this country.
Because, returning to the topic of thread, there *is* a meaningful difference between the 'liblabcon' as the kippers casually dismiss the traditional parties. The difference is most stark regarding credibility on the international markets, and we're still in £90bn of the deficit brown stuff. Day 1 of the Miliband era will see many chickens come home to roost, and I despair that so called patriots from the UKIP tendency see that as potentially an outcome to be embraced.
A plan? A plan for what - they aren't going to be a majority government! None of their policies they actually have to carry out. They are a pressure group. Whilst ConLabLib may dismiss them as such, they are all shipping votes left, right and centre. Blaming kippers for a Labour goverment seems very odd, how about blaming the Tories for losing their voters to a rival party?UKIP is hopelessly compromised. For a start its stance *is* xenophobic. Not on the basis of its hostility to the EU but instead the fact it is quite deliberately utilising immigration as a vote grabber, and in the process attracting the worst detritus of the EDL and the BNP.
That way lies madness.
Furthermore its approach is hopeless. Pretty much the plan is to either repeal the European act, and possibly (though this only became clear with the last manifesto) invoke article 50. And then start negotiating). This is guaranteed to corral the pro EU vote to the extent that FUD will destroy any attempt to get out.
It might be worth checking out Richard North's site (eureferendum.com), as he knows most of the senior cohort in UKIP, is completely dismissive of their approach, and helpfully has a plan. Which might work. UKIP has no plan, and with its tactic of getting millions of voters to piss away their vote for perhaps 2 seats max, is gifting that nutwad Miliband the premiership. And frankly I'm s
tting myself regards the potential damage that no-mark could do this country. Because, returning to the topic of thread, there *is* a meaningful difference between the 'liblabcon' as the kippers casually dismiss the traditional parties. The difference is most stark regarding credibility on the international markets, and we're still in £90bn of the deficit brown stuff. Day 1 of the Miliband era will see many chickens come home to roost, and I despair that so called patriots from the UKIP tendency see that as potentially an outcome to be embraced.
FredClogs said:
Milliband has categorically stated on more than one occasion he will not form a government with the SNP, he stressed the point repeatedly in the last 5 way TV debate.
And people believe him. 
how naive is that?Watch him change his mind as soon as he gets the possibility of No 10.
Ridgemont said:
Scuffers said:
your argument does not support this.
if UKIP were xenophobic, they would want to stop all immigration period.
you can argue the current system with it's bias towards EU countries is xenophobic.
There's your problem; a perfectly sound logical opinion of almost Enoch Powellian rectitude. Which ignores the actual ground war of dog whistle nonsense, brown faces on the M1, foreign languages on the tube, numbers of ethnics in a manifesto etc etcif UKIP were xenophobic, they would want to stop all immigration period.
you can argue the current system with it's bias towards EU countries is xenophobic.
A high principle utterly confounded by reality and your fellow travellers, of which the majority of public opinion would cross the road to avoid. Which is why UKIP is stuck at 15% ish. Good luck getting out of the EU with those numbers.
How many black faces in the labour manifesto? Or are they xenaphobic too?
You seem to be doing the red tops job for them, pulling the race card by proxy...
Morningside said:
FredClogs said:
Milliband has categorically stated on more than one occasion he will not form a government with the SNP, he stressed the point repeatedly in the last 5 way TV debate.
And people believe him. how naive is that?Watch him change his mind as soon as he gets the possibility of No 10.
FredClogs said:
Milliband has categorically stated on more than one occasion he will not form a government with the SNP, he stressed the point repeatedly in the last 5 way TV debate.
You do realise politicians lie?
That's why these debates are useful only to see who answers questions straight, and who deflect them. Deflectors = liars.
Mr Whippy said:
FredClogs said:
Milliband has categorically stated on more than one occasion he will not form a government with the SNP, he stressed the point repeatedly in the last 5 way TV debate.
You do realise politicians lie?
That's why these debates are useful only to see who answers questions straight, and who deflect them. Deflectors = liars.
jmorgan said:
Morningside said:
FredClogs said:
Milliband has categorically stated on more than one occasion he will not form a government with the SNP, he stressed the point repeatedly in the last 5 way TV debate.
And people believe him. how naive is that?Watch him change his mind as soon as he gets the possibility of No 10.
Mr Whippy said:
FredClogs said:
Milliband has categorically stated on more than one occasion he will not form a government with the SNP, he stressed the point repeatedly in the last 5 way TV debate.
You do realise politicians lie?
That's why these debates are useful only to see who answers questions straight, and who deflect them. Deflectors = liars.
I realise politicians lie, the ones who claim to give you no nonsense straight talking, but he's on record making those comments not 4 weeks before the election.
FredClogs said:
He didn't deflect it, he categorically said he had major problems with the SNP and would never form a government with them.
I realise politicians lie, the ones who claim to give you no nonsense straight talking, but he's on record making those comments not 4 weeks before the election.
Even when they don't deflect they lie I realise politicians lie, the ones who claim to give you no nonsense straight talking, but he's on record making those comments not 4 weeks before the election.
Honestly though, just go on your gut feeling.
best way to find out if he's a liar is to see if he stands up to his promises. But I can already tell you he won't and when asked on those issues, yep, deflect time
FredClogs said:
Mr Whippy said:
FredClogs said:
Milliband has categorically stated on more than one occasion he will not form a government with the SNP, he stressed the point repeatedly in the last 5 way TV debate.
You do realise politicians lie?
That's why these debates are useful only to see who answers questions straight, and who deflect them. Deflectors = liars.
I realise politicians lie, the ones who claim to give you no nonsense straight talking, but he's on record making those comments not 4 weeks before the election.
It's not like these guys are up for libel if they backtrack.
Sorry, WHEN they backtrack.
S
UKIP is possiibly shipping votes in 3 direction but they are not equal. The Tories marginal battles are disproportionally hit by Ukipery;
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/...
TEKNOPUG said:
A plan? A plan for what - they aren't going to be a majority government! None of their policies they actually have to carry out. They are a pressure group. Whilst ConLabLib may dismiss them as such, they are all shipping votes left, right and centre. Blaming kippers for a Labour goverment seems very odd, how about blaming the Tories for losing their voters to a rival party?
Not sure your point being.UKIP is possiibly shipping votes in 3 direction but they are not equal. The Tories marginal battles are disproportionally hit by Ukipery;
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/...
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff