Opposite views to PH majority
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
So Brown triggered a world wide recession did he?
I'm afraid you do not seem to understand what occured. Brown and Clinton were not alone,and if you had noticed , I inferred as such, but they were two of the key people and were picked out because of that and overall relevance.You will see if you do some digging, that Canada, Australia, and others did not adopt similar policies to Brown/Clinton etc, and lo and behold were not affected in anything like the manner we were. Charting the currency movements of different countries at the time of the crash is a VERY graphic illustrator of that.
The fact remains, that fiscal incompetence by Governments caused our financial malaise, they legislated, they created the environment that banks were forced to work in, they, Brown, Clinton, and others, f
ked it, a political failure,by politicians, not a capitalism failure. P/S Of course, (as later edit) , this was not (Banking interference) Brown's worst mistake, or worst example of his incompetence, had he been more like John Howard in his fiscal actions with tax receipts we would not be in half the pickle we are.
Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Tuesday 28th April 13:12
davepoth said:
Ah, but there's the problem. Capitalism didn't fail. Terrible banks and terrible regulation failed. Terrible government planning which meant there was no money available to prop up the economy outside of the banks failed.
Interesting choice of words. In many instances regulation "failed" because it was dismantled by those it was meant to regulate. Capitalism in its pure form would always fail, as it cannot work without regulation. It is innately unbalanced.scherzkeks said:
Interesting choice of words. In many instances regulation "failed" because it was dismantled by those it was meant to regulate. Capitalism in its pure form would always fail, as it cannot work without regulation. It is innately unbalanced.
Govenments legislate Banking regulation, politicians, not Banks/bankers. Clinton scrapped Glas-Steagal and Brown created the FSA, basically a regulatory obfuscation , the FSA knew what they were doing, the BoE knew what they were dioing, and the Treasury knew what they were doing, but nobody knew the bigger picture. In effect, there was no regulation. Down went the walls between Consumer and Merchant banking and away we went with the money tree.Both Clinton and Brown driving property booms on the cheap credit it helped create.
I think the problem is that Pistonheads is too binary; If you question the right of someone to call someone else the "N word" then you are a communist or if you think there should be some sort of benefit reform you are basically a Nazi.
Most people exist somewhere in the middle. I have voted Conservative in every election since I started to vote, but have lost count of how many times I have been called a "leftie" or "bleeding heart liberal" on PH, so most of the time I just cant be bothered to participate.
As a slightly side note I have absolutley no clue who to vote for in the forthcomming election. Mr local conservative candidate is Grant Shapps, so that makes things very difficult.
Most people exist somewhere in the middle. I have voted Conservative in every election since I started to vote, but have lost count of how many times I have been called a "leftie" or "bleeding heart liberal" on PH, so most of the time I just cant be bothered to participate.
As a slightly side note I have absolutley no clue who to vote for in the forthcomming election. Mr local conservative candidate is Grant Shapps, so that makes things very difficult.
Discussions on the internet tend to be binary. Let's face it, we love getting a reply to our posts but moderate views don't get as much attention so we tend to over dramatise our views.
I also think human nature means we are usually only looking to reinforce our attitude rather than learn a new angle. That said, I'm a programmer so I think I'm quite good at being objective and I've changed my mind on a few big topics after reading forum discussions.
One thing that bugs me is that people tend to tie up various topics with political affiliation. Throughout this thread you can see how well the Tories have exploited the myth that right wing means economic competence. I have two main problems with this.
1. The fact the Tories were not in power in 2008 was merely a coincidence. While in opposition I don't recall them warning of the financial crash. They were not demanding banking reforms or suggesting our reliance on debt was a problem. If they'd have been in power, the economy would still have collapsed.
2. A simple look at the world hows there is no correlation between right/left wing politics and economic competence. Many countries around the world with far more left-wing leaning Governments than Labour are entirely capable of managing a successful and stable economy. The idea that a more even distribution of wealth is contrary to a successful economy is just propaganda.
I also think human nature means we are usually only looking to reinforce our attitude rather than learn a new angle. That said, I'm a programmer so I think I'm quite good at being objective and I've changed my mind on a few big topics after reading forum discussions.
One thing that bugs me is that people tend to tie up various topics with political affiliation. Throughout this thread you can see how well the Tories have exploited the myth that right wing means economic competence. I have two main problems with this.
1. The fact the Tories were not in power in 2008 was merely a coincidence. While in opposition I don't recall them warning of the financial crash. They were not demanding banking reforms or suggesting our reliance on debt was a problem. If they'd have been in power, the economy would still have collapsed.
2. A simple look at the world hows there is no correlation between right/left wing politics and economic competence. Many countries around the world with far more left-wing leaning Governments than Labour are entirely capable of managing a successful and stable economy. The idea that a more even distribution of wealth is contrary to a successful economy is just propaganda.
BGARK said:
Bluebarge said:
That's pretty much the approach you adopt on the EU thread. Whenever an argument is put to you that you don't like, you either wilfully ignore it, repeat what you said previously even though it has been disproven, or refuse to listen because the argument contains a few long words that you profess not to understand.
If you want a genuine debate, that's not really the way to go about having one, is it?
Ok, so you have basically just attacked me and spun the point in a different direction.If you want a genuine debate, that's not really the way to go about having one, is it?
What reaction would you like, genuine debate, is that what this is?
"The fact that you have used so many random words proves a point that's for sure."
Given the effort he put into explaining the situation, I expect he found that response rather disappointing.
So, do you genuinely want an exchange of views with opposing points of view?, in which case why not start practising what you preach, or are you just keen to have a pop?
Bluebarge said:
Calm down Dear. Merely pointing out that, where you come across opposing points of vew, you tend not to engage with them at all, which leads me to doubt whether you actually are interested in a debate with opposing viewpoints at all. I give the example of the EU thread because, when another poster gave quite a detailed response to your assertion that the EU was "undemocratic", this was your response:
"The fact that you have used so many random words proves a point that's for sure."
Given the effort he put into explaining the situation, I expect he found that response rather disappointing.
So, do you genuinely want an exchange of views with opposing points of view?, in which case why not start practising what you preach, or are you just keen to have a pop?
Go on then try me, I still fail to see where I have had a pop at anyone, you sensitive souls!"The fact that you have used so many random words proves a point that's for sure."
Given the effort he put into explaining the situation, I expect he found that response rather disappointing.
So, do you genuinely want an exchange of views with opposing points of view?, in which case why not start practising what you preach, or are you just keen to have a pop?
The bile I see for the conservatives and UKIP in more left wing dominated places makes PH look moderate. You complain too much. The political makeup of a forum is what it is. A forum for a hobby which disproportionately attracts the wealthy and the materialistic and a means of transport which is personal rather than communal is hardly likely to be predominantly left of centre. Look at the attitudes to cars on CiF. Try publictransportheads.
Efbe said:
Cheese is showing right now why left wing ideas are not seen on here.
over the top, reactionary right wing opinions are about all you see in the political threads. It doesn't mean that the forums are made up entirely of them; i suppose there just may be a relationship between right wing and overreacting aggressiveness with a complete inability to empathise with other's opinions.
Try visiting the Guardians political website, you will see exactly the same attitude from left wing posters there. In fact their attitude and language towards those who don't share their view is even more rude and aggressive. It just depends on ones view point I suppose.over the top, reactionary right wing opinions are about all you see in the political threads. It doesn't mean that the forums are made up entirely of them; i suppose there just may be a relationship between right wing and overreacting aggressiveness with a complete inability to empathise with other's opinions.
I haven't read the full topic, but I'm on a couple of other car forums (TR6, RS Clio and Honda CRX) and whilst they aren't 'lefty-greeny' types, they certainly aren't as blindfolded about politics as what a lot of PistonHeads are. There's just a larger mix of views. I expect it's because not everyone is in the wannabe-middle class bracket.
Other areas that are more left, though, as mentioned are the arts, religious groups and public sector workers (but not all of them!). Other groups from the private sector I've met are from the veterinary circle, the medicine/pharmaceutical industries and computer game developers, although that can be considered an art.
In the 13 years I was a vehicle technician, generally filled with unemployable scrotes who heavily relied on handouts, had bigoted views about immigrants, archaic views on women and not once spoke highly of Labour and several at my last garage had terrible views of the teaching profession - much in line with those on this forum.
It's not as black and white as people on this forum are led to believe (or try to make people believe).
Other areas that are more left, though, as mentioned are the arts, religious groups and public sector workers (but not all of them!). Other groups from the private sector I've met are from the veterinary circle, the medicine/pharmaceutical industries and computer game developers, although that can be considered an art.
In the 13 years I was a vehicle technician, generally filled with unemployable scrotes who heavily relied on handouts, had bigoted views about immigrants, archaic views on women and not once spoke highly of Labour and several at my last garage had terrible views of the teaching profession - much in line with those on this forum.
It's not as black and white as people on this forum are led to believe (or try to make people believe).
To all those on here 'disappointed' with perceived right-wing neocon free market libertarian ideologies displayed on PH, what do you respond to the comment on Radio 4 'Today' programme broadcast last Saturday, just before 09:00 when a guest said that the Tories were a 'cancer that had to be excised' and were a societal menace? And this is referring to Cameron's 'Tory Lite' brand.
Can you point me to where any right-of-centre talking head would be allowed to dis the 'left' in such terms, on the flagship current affairs programme? Without apology?
At least at PH - and other online fora - there is enough space to find a discussion, or start one. There's always more space to move onto another if necessary...
Lastly, at what point have we discovered what the 'majority' view on PH is?
Can you point me to where any right-of-centre talking head would be allowed to dis the 'left' in such terms, on the flagship current affairs programme? Without apology?
At least at PH - and other online fora - there is enough space to find a discussion, or start one. There's always more space to move onto another if necessary...
Lastly, at what point have we discovered what the 'majority' view on PH is?
BGARK said:
otolith said:
the wealthy and the materialistic
Does this mean the genuinely hard working people of the UK.The Don of Croy said:
Lastly, at what point have we discovered what the 'majority' view on PH is?
Exactly. I suspect most PHers avoid the political discussion threads because the more extreme / strong-conviction posters tend to shout the loudest. This creates a false impression that PH is heavily right-wing. It might have more strongly right-wing posters than strongly left-wing, but my guess would be that the majority of PHers are central. I have some views that might be considered right-of-centre and some left-of-centre - which just shows that the left-right description is woefully inadequate.ewenm said:
Exactly. I suspect most PHers avoid the political discussion threads because the more extreme / strong-conviction posters tend to shout the loudest. This creates a false impression that PH is heavily right-wing. It might have more strongly right-wing posters than strongly left-wing, but my guess would be that the majority of PHers are central. I have some views that might be considered right-of-centre and some left-of-centre - which just shows that the left-right description is woefully inadequate.
Whilst I'm sure there's some truth in this, and whilst voting intention doesn't tell you everything about one's politics, there's 280 people here, and it ain't central:http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
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