Who will be the new Labour leader?

[otolith]

The most amusing thing about TTIP is that the EU has been writing similar agreements for ever - yet it's a principled opposition to ISDS and not a knee-jerk reaction to the agreement being with America this time? Yeah, right, of course.

It is amusing to see the near unanimity the Left had achieved on Europe (it was not always so) shaken by the realisation that it might do things they don't approve of with bugger all they can do about it. I wonder if a Eurosceptic Labour leader will give Labour the same Europe headache that the Tories have had?

[Andy Zarse]

edh said:

Andy Zarse said:

RYH64E said:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/...

Even Polly Toynbee agrees that Labour can't win with Corbyn as leader, it's a bit of a shock to see a half sensible analysis from her, I usually only read her stuff for a laugh.

Corbyn is going to have to face the reality that comes with being leader. He's caught in a trap of his own making; the EU referendum is a binary question:

Vote No and align Labour with UKIP.

Or vote Yes with the Tories and sign up to the (hated by the Left) TTIP.

Oh this is going to be good!

I don't think it's that simple. Cameron is likely to present a half-arsed compromise, likely to opt out of some of the more palatable (to the left) bits of EU law. Lots of Tories will be against it, currently suggested to include 8 cabinet ministers. Labour will not make the same mistake as in Scotland and join a Tory campaign.

A Corbyn led labour party is as likely to sign up to TTIP as I am to vote Tory.

I'm going to see him speak this weekend. I'm afraid that the other 3 candidates have been pretty dismal so far. Burnham was good in person, but is blindly pro-EU and pro Trident.

I'm very sorry, but it really is that simple.

Remaining in the EU will mean that TTIP gets enacted whether Jezza likes it or not. There are no get outs. Even if he is PM (and can you honestly imagine anything more unlikely?), if he is on the Yes camp to stay in the EU, then he is by default pro TTIP. The UK will be automatically enroled and TTIP will be legally binding on us. End of story.

So the question is going to be put to him, as Leader of the Opposition, is; Jeremy will you recommend a Yes or No?". Yes but no TTIP is not an acceptable answer. And if he says NO, he immediately share a platform with Farrage.

There are simply no alternatives. You see, you can attend as many silly leftie meetings with Jezza as you like, but basically the man is a complete dreamer who has never had to take responsibility for anything in his life. My view is that he should enjoy his coronation, but that he'll hate every minute of being Labour leader. Being Leader means he'll have to take decisions that affect people for better or worse, and with it criticism. Clearly this is not something he is used to, nor will his bad temper allow it to pass.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Wednesday 26th August 11:16

[edh]

Andy Zarse said:

I'm very sorry, but it really is that simple.

Remaining in the EU will mean that TTIP gets enacted whether Jezza likes it or not. There are no get outs. Even if he is PM (and can you honestly imagine anything more unlikely?), if he is on the Yes camp to stay in the EU, then he is by default pro TTIP. The UK will be automatically enroled and TTIP will be legally binding on us. End of story.

So the question is going to be put to him, as Leader of the Opposition, is; Jeremy will you recommend a Yes or No?". Yes but no TTIP is not an acceptable answer. And if he says NO, he immediately share a platform with Farrage.

There are simply no alternatives. You see, you can attend as many silly leftie meetings with Jezza as you like, but basically the man is a complete dreamer who has never had to take responsibility for anything in his life. My view is that he should enjoy his coronation, but that he'll hate every minute of being Labour leader. Being Leader means he'll have to take decisions that affect people for better or worse, and with it criticism. Clearly this is not something he is used to, nor will his bad temper allow it to pass.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Wednesday 26th August 11:16

No reason to ever share a platform with Farage. A no to Cameron's EU proposal can be run as a separate campaign to whatever UKIP get up to.
The left has a long history of opposition to EU.

I wouldn't underestimate Corbyn and the effect he could have - the current labour leadership and PLP are regretting they way they dismissed his campaign out of hand. I'll carry on with my "silly leftie meetings" thanks - or as I might put it, listening to the candidates standing for leadership of my party and then making my mind up who to vote for.

[RYH64E]

basherX said:

Just because they haven't identified people doesn't mean that they're necessarily fully signed up to the aims and objectives of the Labour Party. 100% of Tory supporters I know who signed up have not (yet) been kicked out- not a statistically valid sample but enough to demonstrate that some are slipping through the net.

A wider problem, and one I don't think they can address, seems to me that anecdotally people who are of a hard left persuasion seem culturally more inclined to be activists, sign up to petitions, protest etc. Therefore it wouldn't be surprising that the largest portion of new joiners are inclined to support Corbyn, taking the leadership electorate quite a way from Labour's core support. A hard lesson learned perhaps.

Anybody been following the nonsense about women only carriages? If you look at what he actually said versus th narrative that emerged almost immediately it's quite a good indication of the treatment he can expect when elected. Something doesn't have to be accurate, just sufficiently lunatic to be plausible, and it's a stick with which he's beaten.

Weeding out Tories is one thing but deciding who are the right kind of Labour supporters isn't really acceptable imo. I'm probably the only Tory in my family, the rest are mostly long time, committed Labour Party members who've been very unhappy through the Blair years and would like to see Corbyn take the party back to the days of Michael Foot and Tony Benn. They're obviously wrong, but why shouldn't they have a say in who runs the party they've been members or supporters of for many years?

Similarly Mark Serwotka, as a union leader he's obviously a seriously deluded individual, but as an ex Party member should he not be entitled to a vote as a supporter? Maybe not a supporter of the current centre ground party but certainly a supporter of the left wing alternative that many members and supporters want to see?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/25/la...

[otolith]

RYH64E said:

Weeding out Tories is one thing but deciding who are the right kind of Labour supporters isn't really acceptable imo. I'm probably the only Tory in my family, the rest are mostly long time, committed Labour Party members who've been very unhappy through the Blair years and would like to see Corbyn take the party back to the days of Michael Foot and Tony Benn. They're obviously wrong, but why shouldn't they have a say in who runs the party they've been members or supporters of for many years?

Similarly Mark Serwotka, as a union leader he's obviously a seriously deluded individual, but as an ex Party member should he not be entitled to a vote as a supporter? Maybe not a supporter of the current centre ground party but certainly a supporter of the left wing alternative that many members and supporters want to see?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/25/la...

It's 36 years since the release of The Life of Brian. The left's habit of hating splitters more than Romans Tories has not gone away.

[Andy Zarse]

edh said:

No reason to ever share a platform with Farage. A no to Cameron's EU proposal can be run as a separate campaign to whatever UKIP get up to.
The left has a long history of opposition to EU.

I wouldn't underestimate Corbyn and the effect he could have - the current labour leadership and PLP are regretting they way they dismissed his campaign out of hand. I'll carry on with my "silly leftie meetings" thanks - or as I might put it, listening to the candidates standing for leadership of my party and then making my mind up who to vote for.

You do realise there isn't an actual platform, right? It's a virtual one. He will just be aligning Labour views with those of Farage. The left's opposition to the EU was only ever a small minority.

I guess you are in the camp which agrees with the old maxim of "First they ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they fight you". I think you are missing the final bit which is "then the Tories win a 120 seat majority".

You can keep dreaming about this mythical "Corbyn effect"; most normal people can clearly see he's a silly old duffer. Moreover the polls say Labour support is decreasing.

Corbyn is totally unsuited to be a leader, it is patently not in his nature. He is a dissenter and has no consensus about him. I believe he will actually hate the job, and consequently - leaving aside the actual politics - be truly terrible at the management/leadership aspects. He will destroy a party which ironically he actually shouldn't even be a member of.

[Cheese Mechanic]

edh said:

I don't think it's that simple. Cameron is likely to present a half-arsed compromise, likely to opt out of some of the more palatable (to the left) bits of EU law. Lots of Tories will be against it, currently suggested to include 8 cabinet ministers. Labour will not make the same mistake as in Scotland and join a Tory campaign.
A Corbyn led labour party is as likely to sign up to TTIP as I am to vote Tory.
I'm going to see him speak this weekend. I'm afraid that the other 3 candidates have been pretty dismal so far. Burnham was good in person, but is blindly pro-EU and pro Trident.

You actually go and waste time listening to these cretins? God's teeth! You'll never get that part of your life back you know.

[glazbagun]

Apologies if this is old news, but secretary of a trade union doesn't share Labour values, but Liz Kendall does?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/25/la...

Prior to this mess I thought that Corbyn would have made them unelectable. Right now it looks like he's the only candidate that will give them at least internal credibility. If he gets booted out when the third & fourth votes are counted, it's going to stink to high heaven, even if legitimate.

[edh]

Andy Zarse said:

You do realise there isn't an actual platform, right? It's a virtual one. He will just be aligning Labour views with those of Farage. The left's opposition to the EU was only ever a small minority.

I guess you are in the camp which agrees with the old maxim of "First they ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they fight you". I think you are missing the final bit which is "then the Tories win a 120 seat majority".

You can keep dreaming about this mythical "Corbyn effect"; most normal people can clearly see he's a silly old duffer. Moreover the polls say Labour support is decreasing.

Corbyn is totally unsuited to be a leader, it is patently not in his nature. He is a dissenter and has no consensus about him. I believe he will actually hate the job, and consequently - leaving aside the actual politics - be truly terrible at the management/leadership aspects. He will destroy a party which ironically he actually shouldn't even be a member of.

Oh gosh, a "virtual" platform, who'd have thought it? You mean you can campaign together without having to be in the same room?
UKIP and Labour cannot "align" as many of UKIP's policies are anathama to Labour and vice versa.

Tories have a 12 seat majority. They are hugely divided over Europe. I don't expect them to have an easy 5 years in government. I expect things will fall apart before 2020.

As for leadership / management - he's run a pretty good campaign so far. I had absolutely no expectations of him when his name went forward, but he's surprised me. His style so far has been remarkably consensual and calm, and has risen above the ridiculous attacks from within the party and outside. Like Farage, and unlike most politicians, he seems to say what he thinks and believes in, rather than relying on inane platitudes. At a time when interest and involvement in mainstream party politics was dying, he's mobilised and enthused thousands of people who may go on to become much more active. Labour party membership is growing fast. You can't deny that part of the "Corbyn effect". Pulling public discourse leftwards could easily happen (suddenly it seems this phrase "the Overton window" has appeared).

btw - Why shouldn't he be a member of Labour?

[basherX]

Andy Zarse said:

basherX said:

Anybody been following the nonsense about women only carriages? If you look at what he actually said versus th narrative that emerged almost immediately it's quite a good indication of the treatment he can expect when elected. Something doesn't have to be accurate, just sufficiently lunatic to be plausible, and it's a stick with which he's beaten.

So what did he actually say, and how is it taken out of context?

His suggestion is quite clearly that he would "consult with women" (though with which ones he does not say) on women only carriages. Corblimey clearly thinks they are a good idea, but has quite rightly been condemned as wrong by both Left and Right alike.

And now you're all "poor old Jeremey has been taken out of context"... Sorry I don't buy it!

Ugh. I'm not "poor old Jeremy" at all. I just think that this is a good illustrative example for two reasons:

1) this whole Corbyn theme of decision making by consultation will not work in a party leadership environment and whilst he might think it allows him to float ideas it clearly doesn't. Especially where it's obvious that whether he agrees with the idea or not, it sits neatly within the media's perception of his worldview. He's hugely naive in this respect and displays the fact that he's never had a ministerial office (or shadow).

2) Following on from that, it doesn't matter what he actually thinks: the media narrative is set. That's not a particular surprise to most of us but it does appear that he and his advisors are deluded enough to think that somehow they have a choice in how he will be presented. That ship sailed a long time ago....

[RYH64E]

glazbagun said:

Apologies if this is old news, but secretary of a trade union doesn't share Labour values, but Liz Kendall does?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/25/la...

Prior to this mess I thought that Corbyn would have made them unelectable. Right now it looks like he's the only candidate that will give them at least internal credibility. If he gets booted out when the third & fourth votes are counted, it's going to stink to high heaven, even if legitimate.

Maybe not very old, but I did post the same link 20 minutes ago just three posts up the page.

[Digga]

Cheese Mechanic said:

You actually go and waste time listening to these cretins? God's teeth! You'll never get that part of your life back you know.

[MGJohn]

Andy Zarse said:

I'm very sorry, but it really is that simple.

Remaining in the EU will mean that TTIP gets enacted whether Jezza likes it or not. There are no get outs. Even if he is PM (and can you honestly imagine anything more unlikely?), if he is on the Yes camp to stay in the EU, then he is by default pro TTIP. The UK will be automatically enroled and TTIP will be legally binding on us. End of story.

So the question is going to be put to him, as Leader of the Opposition, is; Jeremy will you recommend a Yes or No?". Yes but no TTIP is not an acceptable answer. And if he says NO, he immediately share a platform with Farrage.

There are simply no alternatives. You see, you can attend as many silly leftie meetings with Jezza as you like, but basically the man is a complete dreamer who has never had to take responsibility for anything in his life. My view is that he should enjoy his coronation, but that he'll hate every minute of being Labour leader. Being Leader means he'll have to take decisions that affect people for better or worse, and with it criticism. Clearly this is not something he is used to, nor will his bad temper allow it to pass.

That's how I see these things. Well said Andy.

I may have missed it but, I have not seen this TTIP and how it will affect the UK given the attention it most certainly deserves by any of our oh so clever media. If any have, I am ready to apologise. That drums needs to be banged loudly!

Yes, J. Corbyn is yet another example of those far too many "Dreamers" in all shades of UK Politics. Those who have largely been well cushioned against the realities those we entrust to our Nation's well being create for the rest of us. They each need a severe dose of reality to dispel those unreal dreams.

I have freely admitted being pleased to vote Labour in the past. Cannot ever see me doing so again. What saddens me is that the Conservatives for some decades now have been the best of a poor range of choices.

The four adults in this household have previously voted Labour. Only one did so this GE back in May. That one due mainly to the influences of his work colleagues rather than what we decided needed real change.

Failing some kind of very unlikely improved change of status quo in the EU stance meantime, this voter has moved strongly towards the OUT come the EU referendum.

[Andy Zarse]

edh said:

Andy Zarse said:

You do realise there isn't an actual platform, right? It's a virtual one. He will just be aligning Labour views with those of Farage. The left's opposition to the EU was only ever a small minority.

I guess you are in the camp which agrees with the old maxim of "First they ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they fight you". I think you are missing the final bit which is "then the Tories win a 120 seat majority".

You can keep dreaming about this mythical "Corbyn effect"; most normal people can clearly see he's a silly old duffer. Moreover the polls say Labour support is decreasing.

Corbyn is totally unsuited to be a leader, it is patently not in his nature. He is a dissenter and has no consensus about him. I believe he will actually hate the job, and consequently - leaving aside the actual politics - be truly terrible at the management/leadership aspects. He will destroy a party which ironically he actually shouldn't even be a member of.

Oh gosh, a "virtual" platform, who'd have thought it? You mean you can campaign together without having to be in the same room?
UKIP and Labour cannot "align" as many of UKIP's policies are anathama to Labour and vice versa.

Tories have a 12 seat majority. They are hugely divided over Europe. I don't expect them to have an easy 5 years in government. I expect things will fall apart before 2020.

As for leadership / management - he's run a pretty good campaign so far. I had absolutely no expectations of him when his name went forward, but he's surprised me. His style so far has been remarkably consensual and calm, and has risen above the ridiculous attacks from within the party and outside. Like Farage, and unlike most politicians, he seems to say what he thinks and believes in, rather than relying on inane platitudes. At a time when interest and involvement in mainstream party politics was dying, he's mobilised and enthused thousands of people who may go on to become much more active. Labour party membership is growing fast. You can't deny that part of the "Corbyn effect". Pulling public discourse leftwards could easily happen (suddenly it seems this phrase "the Overton window" has appeared).

btw - Why shouldn't he be a member of Labour?

If that's your view on his leadership style then you will have a very rude awakening once he's stood at the dispatch box. The people he has recently enthused - whom let is call "Corgettes" for want of a better expression - are clearly the natural hard left who have not had a decent hook to hang their hat on since Kinnock turned traitor in 1987.

As to why Corblimey shouldn't even be a member of Labour, I'm surprised you should even ask. He's voted against the Labour whip more times than David Cameron. In fact, on over 500 occasions. Yes, 500! And now he's running for bloody leader! It's extraordinary isn't it. On the other hand, the are expelling all and sundry they suspect of not being in accord with Labour values... It's ironic, no?

[turbobloke]

MGJohn said:

Andy Zarse said:

I'm very sorry, but it really is that simple.

Remaining in the EU will mean that TTIP gets enacted whether Jezza likes it or not. There are no get outs. Even if he is PM (and can you honestly imagine anything more unlikely?), if he is on the Yes camp to stay in the EU, then he is by default pro TTIP. The UK will be automatically enroled and TTIP will be legally binding on us. End of story.

So the question is going to be put to him, as Leader of the Opposition, is; Jeremy will you recommend a Yes or No?". Yes but no TTIP is not an acceptable answer. And if he says NO, he immediately share a platform with Farrage.

There are simply no alternatives. You see, you can attend as many silly leftie meetings with Jezza as you like, but basically the man is a complete dreamer who has never had to take responsibility for anything in his life. My view is that he should enjoy his coronation, but that he'll hate every minute of being Labour leader. Being Leader means he'll have to take decisions that affect people for better or worse, and with it criticism. Clearly this is not something he is used to, nor will his bad temper allow it to pass.

That's how I see these things. Well said Andy.

Agreed.

MGJohn said:

I have freely admitted being pleased to vote Labour in the past.

[Zod]

Andy Zarse said:

If that's your view on his leadership style then you will have a very rude awakening once he's stood at the dispatch box. The people he has recently enthused - whom let is call "Corgettes" for want of a better expression - are clearly the natural hard left who have not had a decent hook to hang their hat on since Kinnock turned traitor in 1987.

As to why Corblimey shouldn't even be a member of Labour, I'm surprised you should even ask. He's voted against the Labour whip more times than David Cameron. In fact, on over 500 occasions. Yes, 500! And now he's running for bloody leader! It's extraordinary isn't it. On the other hand, the are expelling all and sundry they suspect of not being in accord with Labour values... It's ironic, no?

It just shows that the Labour Party has no core. It is a loose coalition of different left wing groupings that distrust each other.

[CorbynFTW]

Who says Corbyn is stubborn...

Courtesy of the Mirror:

The MP's marriage infamously broke up in 1999 after his wife Claudia Bracchitta wanted to send their son Benjamin to a top grammar school.

Despite attending a grammar himself, left-winger Mr Corbyn opposed selective teaching and wouldn't back down on his principles.

His wife refused to send Benjamin to an inner-city comprehensive and eventually the marriage couldn't stand the strain.

[Cheese Mechanic]

CorbynFTW said:

Who says Corbyn is stubborn...
Courtesy of the Mirror:
The MP's marriage infamously broke up in 1999 after his wife Claudia Bracchitta wanted to send their son Benjamin to a top grammar school.
Despite attending a grammar himself, left-winger Mr Corbyn opposed selective teaching and wouldn't back down on his principles.
His wife refused to send Benjamin to an inner-city comprehensive and eventually the marriage couldn't stand the strain.

One of the duties of parenthood is to do level best to gain for your child(ren) the best possible education, do your best to help them achieve.

This cretin actively disrupted his childs chance of best education owing to his self righeous "principles" . Man is a prick. (if it was ever in doubt)

[Timmy40]

Cheese Mechanic said:

CorbynFTW said:

Who says Corbyn is stubborn...
Courtesy of the Mirror:
The MP's marriage infamously broke up in 1999 after his wife Claudia Bracchitta wanted to send their son Benjamin to a top grammar school.
Despite attending a grammar himself, left-winger Mr Corbyn opposed selective teaching and wouldn't back down on his principles.
His wife refused to send Benjamin to an inner-city comprehensive and eventually the marriage couldn't stand the strain.

One of the duties of parenthood is to do level best to gain for your child(ren) the best possible education, do your best to help them achieve.

This cretin actively disrupted his childs chance of best education owing to his self righeous "principles" . Man is a prick. (if it was ever in doubt)

Not to mention the importance of a stable home environment, which he also needlessly fked up.

[CorbynFTW]

Yup.



Go Jezza! #CrippleLabour