Who will be the new Labour leader?
Poll: Who will be the new Labour leader?
Total Members Polled: 378
Discussion
edh said:
Andy Zarse said:
Tell me something. What exactly are the "aims and values" of the Labour Party? And how do you know this guy doesn't support them?
What about the tens of thousands of members of other parties such as the Greens and Socialist Workers Party who paid their £3 just to vote for Corbyn? Are they
s too? They massively outnumber the Tory moles, so why aren't you up in arms, effin' and jeffin' about them too?
They are so broad and bland that they are whatever the "leadership" decide they are. I think it's pretty hard to disagree with What about the tens of thousands of members of other parties such as the Greens and Socialist Workers Party who paid their £3 just to vote for Corbyn? Are they
s too? They massively outnumber the Tory moles, so why aren't you up in arms, effin' and jeffin' about them too? • social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
Not too worried about SWP entryism - must be a no more than a couple of thousand SWP, RCP, CP or any other variant in the UK, max. We'll see a breakdown of votes for each candidate, from each section of the electorate, which will be interesting to see.
The £3 supporter vote was a strange idea - a party member of less than 12 months can't even vote for a council candidate. If the idea of extending the franchise was to engage more people in Labour politics, it's certainly done that. In the long term it may be a success if the party grows to half a million active members, when the Tory party is dying.
How dull would this contest have been without Corbyn & the extended franchise? Burnham and to an extent, Cooper, have been pulled left by Corbyn and have finally started showing a bit of spirit.
Andy Zarse said:
edh said:
Andy Zarse said:
edh said:
Read the article and see how you can discuss politics without the childishness and with a bit of courtesy. When you show it, I'll be civil as well.
Courtesy and maturity? You mean like calling Tory boy types s?edh said:
• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
This Socialist "aims" and values stuff is like the British Left equivalent of Mom and Apple Pie politics in the State. • strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
What is "decency" in this context. Does decency include the kind of character assassination of the Blair Brown era, the thrown mobile phones, the good days to bury bad news or the outright lies of the Iraq War justifications, dodgy dossiers and naked corruption.
Does Reward for Hard Work include a 50p tax rate for some people?
REALIST123 said:
Do you really believe that stuff, despite what we have seen labour do yo the country every time they've been in power?
I think you're missing the point - I suggested that these "values" are pretty meaningless and almost everyone would agree with them, so it's hard to exclude people for not supporting "aims and values".Labour governments have done good & bad things, as have the Tories. We all know Labour didn't cause the financial crisis, but I believe if "new" Labour hadn't sold themselves to the City, the UK would have been better placed to weather it.
edh said:
We all know Labour didn't cause the financial crisis, but I believe if "new" Labour hadn't sold themselves to the City, the UK would have been better placed to weather it.
We all know ?.....don't please include me in that...they DID in the UK context and its UK results/impact"No money left, we spent it all and borrowed a hell of a lot more"
Gargamel said:
edh said:
• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
This Socialist "aims" and values stuff is like the British Left equivalent of Mom and Apple Pie politics in the State. • strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
What is "decency" in this context. Does decency include the kind of character assassination of the Blair Brown era, the thrown mobile phones, the good days to bury bad news or the outright lies of the Iraq War justifications, dodgy dossiers and naked corruption.
Does Reward for Hard Work include a 50p tax rate for some people?
For example we saw a great big dead cat land on the table yesterday to distract from the refugee crisis.
For outright lies see much of IDS and the DWP's output.
At the moment, the reward for hard work of millions in this country is min. wage (or less, through "self employment") agency or zero hours exploitation and soaring housing costs.
edh said:
I agree with you (mostly - although the 50p tax rate is OK with me) - those "values" could equally be claimed by the Tories, and the negatives you cite also apply. Blair / Brown failed in many ways, as have Cameron / Osborne.
For example we saw a great big dead cat land on the table yesterday to distract from the refugee crisis.
For outright lies see much of IDS and the DWP's output.
At the moment, the reward for hard work of millions in this country is min. wage (or less, through "self employment") agency or zero hours exploitation and soaring housing costs.
The refugee crisis is hardly the fault of DC. I don't see the comparison. We all know politicians have a requirement to react to events which at times is uncomfortable with what has gone before. That is inevitable. For example we saw a great big dead cat land on the table yesterday to distract from the refugee crisis.
For outright lies see much of IDS and the DWP's output.
At the moment, the reward for hard work of millions in this country is min. wage (or less, through "self employment") agency or zero hours exploitation and soaring housing costs.
Corbyn has a lot of history, much of it anti establishment. The British people overall are quite conservative and believe in their institutions. They will not value someone who is on the "anti" side in every single cause. IRA, Palestine, Greenpeace, CND etc etc.
Gargamel said:
The refugee crisis is hardly the fault of DC. I don't see the comparison. We all know politicians have a requirement to react to events which at times is uncomfortable with what has gone before. That is inevitable.
I was referring to your "good day to bury bad news" comment.Cameron has been under huge pressure to come up with an acceptable response to the refugee crisis. His effort yesterday was poor in many people's opinions. To distract from that, he immediately "threw a dead cat on the table" (a Crosby tactic) by announcing the drone strike. That gets the headlines.
edh said:
Gargamel said:
The refugee crisis is hardly the fault of DC. I don't see the comparison. We all know politicians have a requirement to react to events which at times is uncomfortable with what has gone before. That is inevitable.
I was referring to your "good day to bury bad news" comment.Cameron has been under huge pressure to come up with an acceptable response to the refugee crisis. His effort yesterday was poor in many people's opinions. To distract from that, he immediately "threw a dead cat on the table" (a Crosby tactic) by announcing the drone strike. That gets the headlines.
"Look! Over there! A
edh said:
Andy Zarse said:
edh said:
Andy Zarse said:
edh said:
Read the article and see how you can discuss politics without the childishness and with a bit of courtesy. When you show it, I'll be civil as well.
Courtesy and maturity? You mean like calling Tory boy types s?I only drew attention to the matter due to the apparent hypocrisies expressed.
edh said:
I think it's pretty hard to disagree with
• social justice
It doesn't sound like something one can easily disagree with because it's sufficiently vague to be meaningless and it uses loaded language. Like rebranding inequality of wealth as "relative poverty". You aren't in favour of poverty are you? You aren't against justice, are you? • social justice
Dig into it. What is meant by it? How is it suggested that it should be achieved. Then discuss whether one disagrees with it.
It looks to me as if it is mostly a rebranding of "redistribution of wealth".
otolith said:
edh said:
I think it's pretty hard to disagree with
• social justice
It doesn't sound like something one can easily disagree with because it's sufficiently vague to be meaningless and it uses loaded language. Like rebranding inequality of wealth as "relative poverty". You aren't in favour of poverty are you? You aren't against justice, are you? • social justice
Dig into it. What is meant by it? How is it suggested that it should be achieved. Then discuss whether one disagrees with it.
It looks to me as if it is mostly a rebranding of "redistribution of wealth".
edh said:
• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
These are not policies, they are wishes(particularly bland wishes at that) expressed without the burden of having to do the dull work of devising a means of delivery.• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities
turbobloke said:
Yes, just as 'progressive politics' is a rebranding of socialism. Who would not want to make progress? Except some would not want to make (further) progress to socialism.
and all the "modernisers" are anything but.. (let's retreat to the failures of "new" Labour)and "liberal" seems to be used as an insult in the US
actually there's lots of things I'd rather not be progressing towards..
I know I'm getting old, but I wish people would use terms that actually meant something. I think part of Corbyn's appeal, as Peter Hitchens noted, is that he's unscripted, speaks plainly and seems to have some sort of though through basis for his views, however much you might disagree with them.
The Kendall campaign was woeful, full of new labour "aspirations", and no policy.
edh said:
turbobloke said:
Yes, just as 'progressive politics' is a rebranding of socialism. Who would not want to make progress? Except some would not want to make (further) progress to socialism.
and all the "modernisers" are anything but.. (let's retreat to the failures of "new" Labour)and "liberal" seems to be used as an insult in the US
actually there's lots of things I'd rather not be progressing towards..
I know I'm getting old, but I wish people would use terms that actually meant something.
edh said:
I think part of Corbyn's appeal, as Peter Hitchens noted, is that he's unscripted, speaks plainly and seems to have some sort of thought through basis for his views, however much you might disagree with them.
Andy Zarse said:
Nah, a bit too pooh-faced for me... it would be deeply tedious if there wasn't any goading. Look, I know lefties are famously humourless but where's your sense of mischief?
I only drew attention to the matter due to the apparent hypocrisies expressed.
oh god not "hypocrisy".. next I'll be envious and bitter as well..I only drew attention to the matter due to the apparent hypocrisies expressed.
When we descend to "Corbyn / Cameron smells of poo" it gets a bit silly.
What with "humourless lefties", and the noted dearth of right wing comedians it seems we're a pretty poor bunch if stereotypes is your thing
edh said:
What with "humourless lefties", and the noted dearth of right wing comedians it seems we're a pretty poor bunch if stereotypes is your thing
There used to be plenty of "right wing comedians" but the intolerant left had them all banned off the telly as "racists". We are only now allowed to see left wing so-called comedians, such the hilarious Marcus Brigstock and some of the other ones on Mock the Week. Seems "celebrating diversity" doesn't stretch to other political points of view.edh said:
The Kendall campaign was woeful, full of new labour "aspirations", and no policy.
Of course I appreciate there's a tricky line for him to draw in firstly not upsetting his friends in Hezbollah, but equally not looking like a spineless prick in front of the British electorate.
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