Who will be the new Labour leader?

[rohrl]

Andy Zarse said:

I couldn't care less what you think.

That's fine, you're under no obligation to be embarrassed that you've been caught out posting made-up stories. Most people would probably just accept that they've made a mistake or a misattribution but it's your prerogative to react however you like.

[edh]

turbobloke said:

edh said:

Maybe they are talking about equality of access and opportunity? Access to a good local school and healthcare perhaps? Why don't they say it?

As it stands, the phrase is vacuous and the Tories could equally well adopt it.

Certainly, but prefixing the term 'social' is clearly intended to allude to and conjure up the slightly longer term social-ism, no matter how strenuously it might be claimed otherwise (or strenuously accepted!).

The same trick has been applied to several synthetic labels where the root was already adequate in covering all bases...social security, social protection, social exclusion, indeed social almost anything.

The only innocent at this party of the guilty appears to be social media, which surprisingly enough is apolitical.

At least a couple of terms have arisen or been redefined by supranational big government outfits such as the EU and UN. Not a good pedigree.

Society not socialism?

[CorbynFTW]

Andy Zarse said:

edh said:

The Kendall campaign was woeful, full of new labour "aspirations", and no policy.

Have you found out Corbyn's policy on the drone strike on the ISIS folk? He's had 24 hours to mull it over, you'd have thought he'd have said something by now wouldn't you?

Of course I appreciate there's a tricky line for him to draw in firstly not upsetting his friends in Hezbollah, but equally not looking like a spineless prick in front of the British electorate.

But why say anything now? (From an election PoV).

All it can do is harm him either way, best to stay quiet for a day or so, eating up the time till polls close, keeping the votes coming in.

Tick tock

[CorbynFTW]

Jeremy Hardy was on the BBC complaining he'd been banned.

[robinessex]

I've just been reading what Corbyn said recently on various topics, and what some newspapers said he said. Talk about a bunch of complete aholes. How anyone can form an opinion about the guy when complete garbage is being produced about what he DIDN'T say, is beyond me. And some of that mis-reporting has been reproduced in this topic by the way. The usual newspapers are of course the perpetrators. As you’d expect.

[crankedup]

turbobloke said:

crankedup said:

hidetheelephants said:

edh said:

• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities

These are not policies, they are wishes(particularly bland wishes at that) expressed without the burden of having to do the dull work of devising a means of delivery.

Agreed, they are wishes, but more importantly they are the bedrock of a civilised Society, something Government, whichever colour, should pursue through policy commitments. These commitments are not of the flavour of introducing sudden change but an ongoing goal.

What precisely is Social Justice and then once defined how is it to be achieved?

Also how is Social Justice any better than Justice? Why add 'Social' except to claim some bogus political ownership?

Social justice is the fair and proper administration of laws conforming to the natural law that all persons,irrespective of ethnic origin, gender, possessions, race, religion, etc, are to be treated equally and without prejudice. Social justice is both a process and a goal. 'The goal of social justice education is full and equal participation of all groups in a Society that is mutually shaped to meet their needs. Social Justice includes a vision of Society that is equitable and all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure'. Broadly speaking, Social justice could be said to comprise of nine values.
Human Rights
Social Contract
Structural Injustice
Shared Values
Cultural Relativism
Empowerment
Distributive Justice
Legalism
Creative Capitalism

My thanks to Sarath for this information.

Achieving these laudable ambitions can only be achieved via policies of central and local governments through policy introductions (as I have previously mentioned). For example a policy of taxation that can be broadly accepted as being seemingly neutral in that each sector of Society can be seen to be contributing and/or receiving taxation/credit from Governments.

Social Justice is a separate issue to Justice, as in Legal Justice requiring strictly set rules and regulation leaving very little room either side of right and wrong. Having said that plenty of clever Barristers make good livings from finding the loopholes. So it is correct in use of the term Social Justice in context of the previous post as opposed to merely Justice. It matters not the politics are Left / Right or Centre the two terms refer to differing topics.

[turbobloke]

crankedup said:

turbobloke said:

crankedup said:

hidetheelephants said:

edh said:

• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities

These are not policies, they are wishes(particularly bland wishes at that) expressed without the burden of having to do the dull work of devising a means of delivery.

Agreed, they are wishes, but more importantly they are the bedrock of a civilised Society, something Government, whichever colour, should pursue through policy commitments. These commitments are not of the flavour of introducing sudden change but an ongoing goal.

What precisely is Social Justice and then once defined how is it to be achieved?

Also how is Social Justice any better than Justice? Why add 'Social' except to claim some bogus political ownership?

Social justice is the fair and proper administration of laws conforming to the natural law that all persons,irrespective of ethnic origin, gender, possessions, race, religion, etc, are to be treated equally and without prejudice. Social justice is both a process and a goal. 'The goal of social justice education is full and equal participation of all groups in a Society that is mutually shaped to meet their needs. Social Justice includes a vision of Society that is equitable and all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure'. Broadly speaking, Social justice could be said to comprise of nine values.
Human Rights
Social Contract
Structural Injustice
Shared Values
Cultural Relativism
Empowerment
Distributive Justice
Legalism
Creative Capitalism

My thanks to Sarath for this information.

My thanks to you for responding to the question.

The first bit was either copied by Sarath from below or nicked from Sarath by the source below.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/socia...

The definition as above is somewhat circular, we have 'social contract' with social yet again added to try and turn one thing into something else, then there's distributive justice which can also be described as robbing some people under the authority of the state to give freebies to other people purely because the state thinks it's a jolly good idea via ideological certitude that is once again assumed.

Empowernemt...of Conservatism, excellent. Abiding by tle law - legalism? Should be read out at the next lefty property destruction festival in London or wherever.

Shared values - vague, what values and shared by wbom?

Left wing dogma then said:

Achieving these laudable ambitions...

Self-congratulatory and assumes a lot that far from everyone will agree with!

And then said:

...can only be achieved via policies of central and local governments through policy introductions...

Meaning interference by Big Government? The lack of competence in those politicians predisposed to that sort of thing doesn't augur well for a positive outcome.

Plain old English without the presumptions and phoney prefixes would surely be a lot better but I agree that it wouldn't then blow the skirts of the comrades quite as high.

Taken as a whole it reminds me of something confessed by Blair recently, basically about sounding good and feeling good but not having a chance in hell of doing any good. That's paraphrased, naturally.

[alock]

crankedup said:

Broadly speaking, Social justice could be said to comprise of nine values.
Human Rights
Social Contract
Structural Injustice
Shared Values
Cultural Relativism
Empowerment
Distributive Justice
Legalism
Creative Capitalism

So there are are nine 'values' of which one of them is a list of other 'values' which are shared. Where is this other list of values that must be shared?

Or does it mean that one of the nine values is just stating everyone must share the other eight values?

[Andy Zarse]

rohrl said:

Andy Zarse said:

I couldn't care less what you think.

That's fine, you're under no obligation to be embarrassed that you've been caught out posting made-up stories. Most people would probably just accept that they've made a mistake or a misattribution but it's your prerogative to react however you like.

I was sat on the lavatory just now and remembered. I was wrong. (Yes, I know; me, wrong!)

In fact it was the other hard left alleged-comedian Mark Steel who has been banned from the Labour election for being a member of the SWP. Not Stewart Lee. I think what happened was I got the two mixed up because on the same day Steel was expelled Stewart Lee was all over the media defending Corbyn's comments on describing Osama Bin Laden's death as "a tragedy". Which I suppose, in my defence, is because Lee and Steel are pretty much interchangeable.

So, please accept my profound apologies and I grovel in humiliation. Thus I am happy to state for the benefit of clarity, and using colonel c's definition, it is Mark Steel who is the dishonest , not Stewart Lee. Lee is of course also a dishonest , for defending Corbyn in this respect, but that's another can of worms entirely.

I trust this is the end of the matter.

[crankedup]

turbobloke said:

crankedup said:

turbobloke said:

crankedup said:

hidetheelephants said:

edh said:

• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities

These are not policies, they are wishes(particularly bland wishes at that) expressed without the burden of having to do the dull work of devising a means of delivery.

Agreed, they are wishes, but more importantly they are the bedrock of a civilised Society, something Government, whichever colour, should pursue through policy commitments. These commitments are not of the flavour of introducing sudden change but an ongoing goal.

What precisely is Social Justice and then once defined how is it to be achieved?

Also how is Social Justice any better than Justice? Why add 'Social' except to claim some bogus political ownership?

Social justice is the fair and proper administration of laws conforming to the natural law that all persons,irrespective of ethnic origin, gender, possessions, race, religion, etc, are to be treated equally and without prejudice. Social justice is both a process and a goal. 'The goal of social justice education is full and equal participation of all groups in a Society that is mutually shaped to meet their needs. Social Justice includes a vision of Society that is equitable and all members are physically and psychologically safe and secure'. Broadly speaking, Social justice could be said to comprise of nine values.
Human Rights
Social Contract
Structural Injustice
Shared Values
Cultural Relativism
Empowerment
Distributive Justice
Legalism
Creative Capitalism

My thanks to Sarath for this information.

My thanks to you for responding to the question.

The first bit was either copied by Sarath from below or nicked from Sarath by the source below.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/socia...

The definition as above is somewhat circular, we have 'social contract' with social yet again added to try and turn one thing into something else, then there's distributive justice which can also be described as robbing some people under the authority of the state to give freebies to other people purely because the state thinks it's a jolly good idea via ideological certitude that is once again assumed.

Empowernemt...of Conservatism, excellent. Abiding by tle law - legalism? Should be read out at the next lefty property destruction festival in London or wherever.

Shared values - vague, what values and shared by wbom?

Left wing dogma then said:

Achieving these laudable ambitions...

Self-congratulatory and assumes a lot that far from everyone will agree with!

And then said:

...can only be achieved via policies of central and local governments through policy introductions...

Meaning interference by Big Government? The lack of competence in those politicians predisposed to that sort of thing doesn't augur well for a positive outcome.

Plain old English without the presumptions and phoney prefixes would surely be a lot better but I agree that it wouldn't then blow the skirts of the comrades quite as high.

Taken as a whole it reminds me of something confessed by Blair recently, basically about sounding good and feeling good but not having a chance in hell of doing any good. That's paraphrased, naturally.

Taking each phrase or word and applying ones own definition(s) to them can always result in a differing opinion. I do not accept that 'Social Justice' is purely a Left wing terminology. For example I have heard 'Social Contract' used many times by Conservative Ministers when talking over issues regarding benefits. Also used many times by Cameron when he talked about his 'Big Society'. I see it as modern terminology used by political parties of all colours but agree the word 'Social' carries with it Left wing connotations. As with many modern terms it becomes accepted in language and becomes mainstream.

The introduction of the policies that will engender 'Social Justice' being introduced by Government or local Government is our Democratic wish to embrace such policies, although not all of us individuals will perhaps agree to individual policies.

Blair was correct, sounding good and feeling good is nothing to do with policy acceptance, but it is part of politics. Those politicians who present to the public in a downbeat mournful manner are dead in the water before they start, if you can't be upbeat about yourself and your politics then its time to pack the bags maybe! Much the same for personal political presentation, how do I look!, sound, do I appear approachable? its a science as we know.

Plain English speaking sadly is on the wane, politics and business both suffer as a result but I will stick with Social Justice as being relevant in distinguishing its meaning and a term which appeals to politicians of all colours.

If we ditched Social Justice as terminology how would we present and address the issues identified as falling within the Social Justice banner? Interesting subject this one.

[Andy Zarse]

edh said:

As for grammar schools - I guess you can always go & live in Kent?

Or Shropshire, where Jeremy went to grammar school!

And you know what, you recall your earlier observation about my issues with Corbyn being personal? Well yes, it is slightly personal since we both attended the same grammar school. So I'm disgusted that he would happily deny today's children from having the same educational opportunities as he, his three brothers, and I enjoyed.

What I find unpleasantly plastic about Corbyn is his wilful inverted snobbery. Let us set the matter straight. Corbyn is a posh boy from a rich family. He was privileged to grow up in what is the biggest, most mansion in the entire town. His faux shambolic persona, and dressing up to look like a down at heel school janitor, all biro-in-the-top-pocket, is completely fake. I believe he dresses in a slovenly manner and his imprecise delivery are an attempt to deceive. In truth the man had a classical education and he is by no stretch working class.

You need to recognise I will continue to point out his considerable failings, both personal and political.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Tuesday 8th September 17:35

[robinessex]

Andy Zarse said:

edh said:

As for grammar schools - I guess you can always go & live in Kent?

Or Shropshire, where Jeremy went to grammar school!

And you know what, you recall your earlier observation about my issues with Corbyn being personal? Well yes, it is slightly personal since we both attended the same grammar school. So I'm disgusted that he would happily deny today's children from having the same educational opportunities as he, his three brothers, and I enjoyed.

What I find unpleasantly plastic about Corbyn is his wilful inverted snobbery. Let us set the matter straight. Corbyn is a posh boy from a rich family. He was privileged to grow up in what is the biggest, most mansion in the entire town. His faux shambolic persona, and dressing up to look like a down at heel school janitor, all biro-in-the-top-pocket, is completely fake. I believe he dresses in a slovenly manner and his imprecise delivery are an attempt to deceive. In truth the man had a classical education and he is by no stretch working class.

You need to recognise I will continue to point out his considerable failings, both personal and political.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Tuesday 8th September 17:35

So, if elected labour leader, he may turn out to have quite a bite. Personally, I'd love a Labour leader who could stand up in Parliament, and tear the Tories to pieces. Don't care who it is either.

[edh]

Andy Zarse said:

edh said:

As for grammar schools - I guess you can always go & live in Kent?

Or Shropshire, where Jeremy went to grammar school!

And you know what, you recall your earlier observation about my issues with Corbyn being personal? Well yes, it is slightly personal since we both attended the same grammar school. So I'm disgusted that he would happily deny today's children from having the same educational opportunities as he, his three brothers, and I enjoyed.

What I find unpleasantly plastic about Corbyn is his wilful inverted snobbery. Let us set the matter straight. Corbyn is a posh boy from a rich family. He was privileged to grow up in what is the biggest, most mansion in the entire town. His faux shambolic persona, and dressing up to look like a down at heel school janitor, all biro-in-the-top-pocket, is completely fake. I believe he dresses in a slovenly manner and his imprecise delivery are an attempt to deceive. In truth the man had a classical education and he is by no stretch working class.

You need to recognise I will continue to point out his considerable failings, both personal and political.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Tuesday 8th September 17:35

Hmmm, I was planning to ask the cabal of left wing comedians to exercise their awesome power and have you banned from commenting on Corbyn..

I don't really understand your objections. Does anyone think Corbyn is working class? Does that matter? Strikes me as one of those people who just isn't materialistic or concerned with appearances. Andy Burnham scrubs up well if that helps? and he likes beer & football I thought he was taller though.

Have you been stalking his entire political career? I reckon you might make a few quid from the media in the next few months as they search for people to say nasty things about him.

[crankedup]

alock said:

crankedup said:

Broadly speaking, Social justice could be said to comprise of nine values.
Human Rights
Social Contract
Structural Injustice
Shared Values
Cultural Relativism
Empowerment
Distributive Justice
Legalism
Creative Capitalism

So there are are nine 'values' of which one of them is a list of other 'values' which are shared. Where is this other list of values that must be shared?

Or does it mean that one of the nine values is just stating everyone must share the other eight values?

My own personal POV is that we are all free to decide as we please as to what we accept or reject from the implications and desires of this somewhat limited suggestive definition. It is you that has suggested a 'must' involved.

[crankedup]

edh said:

Andy Zarse said:

edh said:

As for grammar schools - I guess you can always go & live in Kent?

Or Shropshire, where Jeremy went to grammar school!

And you know what, you recall your earlier observation about my issues with Corbyn being personal? Well yes, it is slightly personal since we both attended the same grammar school. So I'm disgusted that he would happily deny today's children from having the same educational opportunities as he, his three brothers, and I enjoyed.

What I find unpleasantly plastic about Corbyn is his wilful inverted snobbery. Let us set the matter straight. Corbyn is a posh boy from a rich family. He was privileged to grow up in what is the biggest, most mansion in the entire town. His faux shambolic persona, and dressing up to look like a down at heel school janitor, all biro-in-the-top-pocket, is completely fake. I believe he dresses in a slovenly manner and his imprecise delivery are an attempt to deceive. In truth the man had a classical education and he is by no stretch working class.

You need to recognise I will continue to point out his considerable failings, both personal and political.

Edited by Andy Zarse on Tuesday 8th September 17:35

Hmmm, I was planning to ask the cabal of left wing comedians to exercise their awesome power and have you banned from commenting on Corbyn..

I don't really understand your objections. Does anyone think Corbyn is working class? Does that matter? Strikes me as one of those people who just isn't materialistic or concerned with appearances. Andy Burnham scrubs up well if that helps? and he likes beer & football I thought he was taller though.

Have you been stalking his entire political career? I reckon you might make a few quid from the media in the next few months as they search for people to say nasty things about him.

Interesting that Corbyn is a 'down to earth' presenter of politics which is completely the opposite of what modern politics has become, shiney suits and bullste.
Looking forward to seeing him perform at P.M. Questions, bring some reality into the event maybe.

[turbobloke]

Corbyn et al would benefit from a careful consideration of some comments from a former PM, in particular (as near as dammit) that one of the key problems of our age involves being governed by people who care more about feelings than they do about thoughts and ideas; and that nobody would have remembered the Good Samaritan if he’d only had good intentions...he had money as well. Vilifying and victimising those who pay for almost everything, including the means to help those in genuine need, while offering nothing more than feelgood emotive rhetoric in return, cannot possibly represent any workable solution for the country's future.

[hidetheelephants]

turbobloke said:

crankedup said:

hidetheelephants said:

edh said:

• social justice
• strong community and strong values
• reward for hard work
• decency
• rights matched by responsibilities

These are not policies, they are wishes(particularly bland wishes at that) expressed without the burden of having to do the dull work of devising a means of delivery.

Agreed, they are wishes, but more importantly they are the bedrock of a civilised Society, something Government, whichever colour, should pursue through policy commitments. These commitments are not of the flavour of introducing sudden change but an ongoing goal.

What precisely is Social Justice and then once defined how is it to be achieved?

Also how is Social Justice any better than Justice? Why add 'Social' except to claim some bogus political ownership?

I'd have said Social Justice is people getting what they ought to get; i.e. it's a poncy way of saying that it would be nice if the NHS, the DWP etc. worked rather than not. It's one of those phrases that sounds like it's meaningful and earnest but is actually vacuous. It might equally and no more meaningfully be called Moral Justice.

edh said:

As it stands, the phrase is vacuous and the Tories could equally well adopt it.

I'm glad we're on the same page.

[turbobloke]

hidetheelephants said:

I'd have said Social Justice is people getting what they ought to get; i.e. it's a poncy way of saying that it would be nice if the NHS, the DWP etc. worked rather than not...

Can't argue with that. May I then enquire how, if at all, the concept of meritocracy figures in that notion of 'people getting what they ought to get'?

In particular and to pursue a commonly quoted theme, it could be said that it's neither just nor entirely meritocratic that 1% of earners pay 30% of all income taxes on 13% of earnings. Possibly a case of moral injustice...yet it's still "not fair" apparently. But unfair which way - in terms of people not getting what they ought to get.

[Andy Zarse]

crankedup said:

Interesting that Corbyn is a 'down to earth' presenter of politics which is completely the opposite of what modern politics has become, shiney suits and bullste.
Looking forward to seeing him perform at P.M. Questions, bring some reality into the event maybe.

Personally I like people who look like statesmen/women and have some pride in their appearance. I feel it adds gravitas. Vests and biros and Weetabix crumbs in the beard don't do it for me I'm afraid. Still each to their own.

The problem with Jezbollah is he hasn't ever had to be responsible for anything he's ever said or done. And the man is a born equivocator. He didn't even have the balls yesterday to quiz Cameron about the death of his "friends" in ISIS. No doubt he thought it was "a tragedy upon a tragedy upon a tragedy upon a tragedy" (I think he's up to four tragedies at the current count).

You see he will have a new and previously untrod line between currying favour with his sycophants and not becoming a laughing stock to the other 95% of the population. Thus I think being Leader of the Opposition is well beyond his pay scale and it will be a complete misery for him.

[Halb]

crankedup said:

Interesting that Corbyn is a 'down to earth' presenter of politics which is completely the opposite of what modern politics has become, shiney suits and bullste.
Looking forward to seeing him perform at P.M. Questions, bring some reality into the event maybe.

All those cookie-cutter shiny suits, all saying nothing. It would be grand to see some elbow patches in that lot.