The BBC at it again - EU referendum

[Cheese Mechanic]

TTwiggy said:

So if, in 2017, the British public vote to stay in, can we expect Ukip et al to shut up and go away, or do you think there might be pressure for another go?

As long as the referendum is free, fair, and without bias,and I can only speak personally, I would take the result in good faith whichever way it fell. Should it not be so, including allowing non-Uk citzens to vote,etc, then no.

On top of that, should we stay in, I do beleive that any further powers given to Brussles, must firstly be approved by the electorate, even if it means referenda on specific treaty's, etc.

A big part of the EU problem, is that powers have been given away, without consent, witness Brown sneaking off like a sneaky naughty boy to sih=gn Lisbon. More accountability to the elctorate, basically.

[WinstonWolf]

Cheese Mechanic said:

TTwiggy said:

So if, in 2017, the British public vote to stay in, can we expect Ukip et al to shut up and go away, or do you think there might be pressure for another go?

As long as the referendum is free, fair, and without bias,and I can only speak personally, I would take the result in good faith whichever way it fell. Should it not be so, including allowing non-Uk citzens to vote,etc, then no.

On top of that, should we stay in, I do beleive that any further powers given to Brussles, must firstly be approved by the electorate, even if it means referenda on specific treaty's, etc.

A big part of the EU problem, is that powers have been given away, without consent, witness Brown sneaking off like a sneaky naughty boy to sih=gn Lisbon. More accountability to the elctorate, basically.

It needs to be put to the population so that there is a mandate in place whichever way it goes. I'm in favour of us pulling out, but if we vote to stay in so be it. We spend far too much time fking about arguing over whether we're in or out rather than discussing more pressing issues.

[tangerine_sedge]

Cheese Mechanic said:

In general the BBC is very biased toward the EU. It receives (BBC) large grants from them (EU) so perhaps not surprising, irrespective of its charter.

Let me correct that for you : the BBC received a relatively small amount (£3M over 3 years?) from the EU for R&D purposes. The BBC does not reveal what exactly this was spent on, but considering that it is a European broadcaster, it's probably money used for working/co-operating on broadcasting standards. You infer that there is a direct link between this money and BBC policy, where no such link exists. If one does exist, then please post it for all to see?

Cheese Mechanic said:

"Balance" shown on R4 would be oiutweighed many times by bias on mainstream TV channels BBC1 etc

I think it's attempting to be fair, and has been reporting from both sides of the case (certainly from the bits of news programmes that I see/hear). It doesn't help that most politicians (Lib/Lab/Con) are pro-Europe, and the only anti-European voice is UKIP who have been too busy slinging mud at each other to put up a decent case yet.

[fido]

^Just £3m for R&D? Says "£22million over a seven-year period from the EU’s communications budget" in the article below!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2975005/Br...

tangerine_sedge said:

I think it's attempting to be fair ..

Do you think the 'The Great European Disaster Movie' sponsored by the EU is fair?

[Cheese Mechanic]

tangerine_sedge said:

I think it's attempting to be fair, and has been reporting from both sides of the case (certainly from the bits of news programmes that I see/hear). It doesn't help that most politicians (Lib/Lab/Con) are pro-Europe, and the only anti-European voice is UKIP who have been too busy slinging mud at each other to put up a decent case yet.

Obfuscation.

Over the years, there have been blatant examples of BBC bias on the EU, to the point of deliberate misinformation.

As for mainstream politicos being in favour of the EU, then thats hardly a viable plus vote , is it, troughs, snouts, and all.

I have been anti EU since they tried to scupper a democratically elected Govt in Austria, since then we have seen numerous times as to how democracy is irrelevant to the EU project.

Serious reform needed, or better still, out altogether.

[rs1952]

Cheese Mechanic said:

TTwiggy said:

So if, in 2017, the British public vote to stay in, can we expect Ukip et al to shut up and go away, or do you think there might be pressure for another go?

As long as the referendum is free, fair, and without bias,and I can only speak personally, I would take the result in good faith whichever way it fell. Should it not be so, including allowing non-Uk citzens to vote,etc, then no.

The International Rules applied to all elections of all sorts by all bad losers:

1. The vote wasn't fair
2. The vote was rigged
3. The national broadcaster was biased against our side
4. The national broadcaster was in the pay of the winning side
5. A, B, C and D (add organisation to taste) were lying, distorting the truth and scaremongering, and this frightened the voters into voting the way they did
6. The voters all agreed with us really in their hearts so we need another vote.

So, in brief, the referendum will probably be free and fair, but the losing side won't see it that way, and won't accept the result. For evidence, see what's been happening in Scotland since last September.

And no, UKIP won't shut up and go away.

This is why, whichever way it goes, The proposed referendum will resolve nothing.

[Jasandjules]

Does anyone truly believe we will have an honest or fair vote? Does anyone believe that no matter what, the answer will be to stay...

[fido]

rs1952 said:

So, in brief, the referendum will probably be free and fair ..

Ireland:-

The first referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 12 June 2008 was rejected by the Irish electorate, by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6%, with a turnout of 53%.[5]

The second referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 2 October 2009 and the proposal was approved by 67.1% to 32.9%, with a turnout of 59%.[6]

[wc98]

i will be voting out, but in the event of a vote to stay in,we should do it properly. in fact, the whole of europe should do it properly. if all the nations involved are serious about it. one elected parliament in the eu and get rid of the multitude of layers of of government we have in the uk. no need for individual parliaments in wales ,scotland and england .
have our constituency mp,s sitting in brussels and get rid of the rest of the dross sucking on the tax payer teat here. if we vote stay in that will be the natural evolution of the eu anyway, no point delaying the inevitable and wasting money in the process.

[Jasandjules]

fido said:

Ireland:-

The first referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 12 June 2008 was rejected by the Irish electorate, by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6%, with a turnout of 53%.[5]

The second referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 2 October 2009 and the proposal was approved by 67.1% to 32.9%, with a turnout of 59%.[6]

Odd there is no mention of a third one - just to make sure........

[voyds9]

ash73 said:

Total BBC income in 2013/14 was £5,066 million.

They received on average £3 million per year from the EU during the last 7 years here.

"large"...?

I could live on it if it's only pocket change to them.

[NoNeed]

wc98 said:

i will be voting out, but in the event of a vote to stay in,we should do it properly. in fact, the whole of europe should do it properly. if all the nations involved are serious about it. one elected parliament in the eu and get rid of the multitude of layers of of government we have in the uk. no need for individual parliaments in wales ,scotland and england .
have our constituency mp,s sitting in brussels and get rid of the rest of the dross sucking on the tax payer teat here. if we vote stay in that will be the natural evolution of the eu anyway, no point delaying the inevitable and wasting money in the process.

I think all nations should do it properly, maybe an american style system, but definitely no opt out or veto's we should all play be the same rules.


What gets me is that we constantly hear about immigration being a problem here but very little about the devastation emigration is causing other nation like poland where they have lost virtually a generation and where their elderly will have nobody to take care of them. This is a European problem that should be resolved at a European level but while the closet racists and fruit loops are the ones making the argument we have no chance.

[limpsfield]

It's a hot topic this week : business and EU in/out.

It started with Lord Bamford's (JCB) comments about coming out of EU which got plenty of coverage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32775396

And has been countered by the CBI opinion today, which also has received plenty of coverage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32805539

[Puggit]

rohrl said:

I heard an interview with the boss of the CBI on radio 4 yesterday. He was arguing that the UK should stay in a reformed EU and the interviewer was putting the arguments to him that reform would need treaty change and that other business leaders and business groups had said that the UK would be okay outside the EU.

Bloody anti-EU BBC.

This was president of CBI, Mike Rake - who in 2003 stated "The risks of staying outside the euro far outweigh any risks of joining".

Yeah, let's listen to him on Europe...

[rs1952]

Puggit said:

rohrl said:

I heard an interview with the boss of the CBI on radio 4 yesterday. He was arguing that the UK should stay in a reformed EU and the interviewer was putting the arguments to him that reform would need treaty change and that other business leaders and business groups had said that the UK would be okay outside the EU.

Bloody anti-EU BBC.

This was president of CBI, Mike Rake - who in 2003 stated "The risks of staying outside the euro far outweigh any risks of joining".

Yeah, let's listen to him on Europe...

And perhaps Puugit considers the BBC to be biased...

As I have pointed out on other threads before, the matter of the exchange rate was the most important factor here.

When we decided against joining the Euro, the initial exchange rate that I got for a trip to Lanzarote in 2002 was £1= €1.57. By 2008, the rate I got on a trip to Corfu was nearly parity.

The £ fell substantially against the Euro for much of the 2000s and that gave the UK an advantage in exporting to the rest of the EU. Had things gone the other way, and the rate had risen to £1 = €2.00 or even €2.50, the UK would have been royally fecked.

The "advantages" that resulted from not joining the Euro had much more to do with luck than with judgement.

[aw51 121565]

Then there is Switzerland - not an EU Member but they have Trade Agreements with EU Member states, are a party to the Schengen Agreement and have their own currency (to name just three things) .

To talk of a digital "in/out" vote regards EU membership is absurd .

[Puggit]

rs1952 said:

The "advantages" that resulted from not joining the Euro had much more to do with luck than with judgement.

The flaws were always clear. It was a matter of time before they showed.

[Ian Geary]

This is a good point, and I agree its completely under the radar in the UK:

NoNeed said:

What gets me is that we constantly hear about immigration being a problem here but very little about the devastation emigration is causing other nation like poland where they have lost virtually a generation and where their elderly will have nobody to take care of them.

I expect Poland will follow type with every other developed country so far, and find people from a less developed country to do their stty work for them, who view the relative peanuts being offered to them as "a fortune" back home.

Slight problem when we run out of undeveloped countries of course, but there's still a lot of Africa to get through yet...and sub Saharan Africa is expecting a a population boom any time now.


The thing bugging me about the Eu referendum is this In/Out binary choice. Of those 2, I would vote to stay in. But I would vote for an option 3 of reverting to a free trade area with movement of capital/people/trade allowed.

Though from reading the links in the earlier thread, it does seem the EEC was just a convenient packaging for the UK at the time, and never what anyone else in Europe was after (aka France / Germany. Swiss seem OK with this idea)

Ian

[mrpurple]

Salmond says UK "risks" leaving EU if 'in' campaign is run on "fearmongering"......... if you treat people as children to be scared by bogeymen in the cupboard, then at some stage the kids start to answer back"

Hope not fear: The former First Minister is dismissive of the idea that Britain couldn't survive outside Europe and compares that approach with the tactics of the No campaign in Scotland last year: “You can't pretend that the UK isn't capable of surviving as an economy outside the EU

BBC Newsnight... whodathoughtit!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2015-32753...

[Esseesse]

Puggit said:

rohrl said:

I heard an interview with the boss of the CBI on radio 4 yesterday. He was arguing that the UK should stay in a reformed EU and the interviewer was putting the arguments to him that reform would need treaty change and that other business leaders and business groups had said that the UK would be okay outside the EU.

Bloody anti-EU BBC.

This was president of CBI, Mike Rake - who in 2003 stated "The risks of staying outside the euro far outweigh any risks of joining".

Yeah, let's listen to him on Europe...

Also the CBI receives large amounts of EU money. Their opinion should be ignored.