Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
I think you should take a whoosh parrot if you can't tell the difference between:
A) an analogy for me making my own decisions, being undoubtedly worse off in the short term but that still being the correct decision, and it paying off years down the line, and
B) a "look what I've got" post.
Give yourself a laugh - go back and read the thing I copied from Wings and see some of the things that an independent Scottish government MIGHT want to do but currently can't within the UK. Then come back and point out the flaws in the arguments.
A) an analogy for me making my own decisions, being undoubtedly worse off in the short term but that still being the correct decision, and it paying off years down the line, and
B) a "look what I've got" post.
Give yourself a laugh - go back and read the thing I copied from Wings and see some of the things that an independent Scottish government MIGHT want to do but currently can't within the UK. Then come back and point out the flaws in the arguments.
Cobnapint said:
Cheaper fuel costs? Lower tax? Faster trains? Free pint every time you walk in a pub? 300 quid towards a 4K tele?
Lower gas bills? Better weather?
This is worth repeating...Lower gas bills? Better weather?
SNP Hell No said:
The Tale of Norrie the Nationalist
Norrie read his book about Nationalism, a book that told him things about Scotland that no other books told him. It was called "Wings over Scotland" and it was the biggest load of pish ever but Norrie believed it. The people that wrote it were far more intelligent than the Unionists who had destroyed Norrie's dream of double dole and freedom.
The Unionists had voted NO to the double dole that had been promised by the Nationalists like Sturgeon and Salmond and the radical independencers doon the high street. "Vote for independence and you will get double dole" they had said to Norrie swaying him into voting for the first time ever. Norrie had entered the YES shop and had been won over by the things written on the walls in big letters - "Double dole", "Double Buckfast", No Tax", "All for free if you vote for us".....
Norrie had gone to bed that night dreaming of double Buckfast and double haggis pies, all at the expense of the tax payer who would have to pay more to pay for the SNP's promises of double dole.
The SNP had promised double dole but the Unionists had said No and Norrie's dream was over. Norrie had been furious and had rushed out in his back garden and shouted "Bastirts" and raised his Saltire high in the air and shouted "Bastiiiirttss" again as loud as he could, but most of them were at work and had not heard Norrie.
Original here.Norrie read his book about Nationalism, a book that told him things about Scotland that no other books told him. It was called "Wings over Scotland" and it was the biggest load of pish ever but Norrie believed it. The people that wrote it were far more intelligent than the Unionists who had destroyed Norrie's dream of double dole and freedom.
The Unionists had voted NO to the double dole that had been promised by the Nationalists like Sturgeon and Salmond and the radical independencers doon the high street. "Vote for independence and you will get double dole" they had said to Norrie swaying him into voting for the first time ever. Norrie had entered the YES shop and had been won over by the things written on the walls in big letters - "Double dole", "Double Buckfast", No Tax", "All for free if you vote for us".....
Norrie had gone to bed that night dreaming of double Buckfast and double haggis pies, all at the expense of the tax payer who would have to pay more to pay for the SNP's promises of double dole.
The SNP had promised double dole but the Unionists had said No and Norrie's dream was over. Norrie had been furious and had rushed out in his back garden and shouted "Bastirts" and raised his Saltire high in the air and shouted "Bastiiiirttss" again as loud as he could, but most of them were at work and had not heard Norrie.
Edited by r11co on Friday 21st October 19:10
GoneAnon said:
Give yourself a laugh - go back and read the thing I copied from Wings and see some of the things that an independent Scottish government MIGHT want to do but currently can't within the UK. Then come back and point out the flaws in the arguments.
Laugh at this this then.Fake Minister said:
NICOLA STURGEON: Okay, I’ve got an idea. Let’s raise the minimum wage so that people have more money to spend. That’ll generate retail and service-sector growth, which are the biggest areas of the economy.
SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT ADVISOR: Nope, sorry. Minimum-wage law is reserved. Scottish Labour specifically fought against devolving it during the Smith Commission talks, despite the proposal being backed by the STUC.
NS: Oh. Well, maybe there’s another way. Could we reduce VAT to lower prices and bring about the same result?”
SGA: VAT is reserved. So you can’t reduce it to boost consumer spending and you can’t increase it to generate more government revenue either.
NS: Huh. I guess if we made businesses wealthier they might employ more people and create growth that way. Could we maybe cut Corporation Tax to try to draw any of them away from the South-East of England?
SGA: No. Corporation Tax is reserved.
NS: Can we at least get them to pay the tax they owe now, then? Corporate tax avoidance costs billions, can we have a proper crackdown on it and boost the coffers that way?
SGA: Nope, that’s reserved too. Westminster employs ten times as many people chasing a tiny amount in benefit fraud than it does on clawing back far higher sums dodged in tax, and is in fact cutting back even further on HMRC staffing levels. So we can’t do anything about it, and there’s also not much point hoping the UK government does and passes any of the results on to us.
NS: What about fuel duty? If we reduced that and got petrol and diesel prices down it’d be good for nearly everyone – haulage firms, businesses transporting their products and end consumers, who’d once again have more growth-creating money in their pockets.
SGA: Fuel duty is reserved.
NS: Our fabulous new income tax powers?
SGA: Those are essentially useless. Firstly we don’t control the basic personal allowance, the thing that affects every taxpayer. We can fiddle around with the margins of the upper rates but that generates very little and also gets you hammered remorselessly from both sides in the press.
Even Labour’s supposedly radical plans for across-the-board increases would only amount to maybe £390m at the most, which is chickenfeed – barely 1% of Holyrood’s budget. That’s not going to plug the gap.
NS: Jeez. Well, can we make some savings somewhere? Nobody on the face of the planet actually wants to invade us, surely we can cut a pile of money out of the defence budget?
SGA: It’s reserved. Plus according to Labour Trident supports more jobs than there are actually people in Scotland, so everyone would be on the dole.
NS: Can we bring in some extra cash from anywhere? What do finance ministers usually do in budgets? They bump up booze and fag tax, right? Can we do that one?
SGA: You know what I’m going to say, don’t you? Here’s the Guardian’s list of the 26 key points in the last UK budget. Basically the only things in the list related to the economy that Holyrood controls in Scotland are stamp duty and business rates, and you’ve already done stuff about those. No dice.
NS: Oil?
SGA: Ha ha ha ha ha.
NS: Okay, let’s think outside the box. We need to get more people into the country, because everyone knows immigrants contribute more than they take out, and we’ve got plenty room. That could help.
SGA: Immigration is reserved, and the UK government is busting a gut trying to throw out the people who are already here.
NS: Bloody hell. Okay, so what are Scotland’s advantages? We know that we’re really well-off for renewable energy resources, and I noticed that there are eye-wateringly massive subsidies being chucked at that new nuclear power station in Somerset, so presumably we could get something similar to invest in our renewables, yeah?
SGA: You’re really not getting how this works.
I'd suggest either he doesn't really get how it works, or more likely he is leading people like yourself down the garden path.SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT ADVISOR: Nope, sorry. Minimum-wage law is reserved. Scottish Labour specifically fought against devolving it during the Smith Commission talks, despite the proposal being backed by the STUC.
NS: Oh. Well, maybe there’s another way. Could we reduce VAT to lower prices and bring about the same result?”
SGA: VAT is reserved. So you can’t reduce it to boost consumer spending and you can’t increase it to generate more government revenue either.
NS: Huh. I guess if we made businesses wealthier they might employ more people and create growth that way. Could we maybe cut Corporation Tax to try to draw any of them away from the South-East of England?
SGA: No. Corporation Tax is reserved.
NS: Can we at least get them to pay the tax they owe now, then? Corporate tax avoidance costs billions, can we have a proper crackdown on it and boost the coffers that way?
SGA: Nope, that’s reserved too. Westminster employs ten times as many people chasing a tiny amount in benefit fraud than it does on clawing back far higher sums dodged in tax, and is in fact cutting back even further on HMRC staffing levels. So we can’t do anything about it, and there’s also not much point hoping the UK government does and passes any of the results on to us.
NS: What about fuel duty? If we reduced that and got petrol and diesel prices down it’d be good for nearly everyone – haulage firms, businesses transporting their products and end consumers, who’d once again have more growth-creating money in their pockets.
SGA: Fuel duty is reserved.
NS: Our fabulous new income tax powers?
SGA: Those are essentially useless. Firstly we don’t control the basic personal allowance, the thing that affects every taxpayer. We can fiddle around with the margins of the upper rates but that generates very little and also gets you hammered remorselessly from both sides in the press.
Even Labour’s supposedly radical plans for across-the-board increases would only amount to maybe £390m at the most, which is chickenfeed – barely 1% of Holyrood’s budget. That’s not going to plug the gap.
NS: Jeez. Well, can we make some savings somewhere? Nobody on the face of the planet actually wants to invade us, surely we can cut a pile of money out of the defence budget?
SGA: It’s reserved. Plus according to Labour Trident supports more jobs than there are actually people in Scotland, so everyone would be on the dole.
NS: Can we bring in some extra cash from anywhere? What do finance ministers usually do in budgets? They bump up booze and fag tax, right? Can we do that one?
SGA: You know what I’m going to say, don’t you? Here’s the Guardian’s list of the 26 key points in the last UK budget. Basically the only things in the list related to the economy that Holyrood controls in Scotland are stamp duty and business rates, and you’ve already done stuff about those. No dice.
NS: Oil?
SGA: Ha ha ha ha ha.
NS: Okay, let’s think outside the box. We need to get more people into the country, because everyone knows immigrants contribute more than they take out, and we’ve got plenty room. That could help.
SGA: Immigration is reserved, and the UK government is busting a gut trying to throw out the people who are already here.
NS: Bloody hell. Okay, so what are Scotland’s advantages? We know that we’re really well-off for renewable energy resources, and I noticed that there are eye-wateringly massive subsidies being chucked at that new nuclear power station in Somerset, so presumably we could get something similar to invest in our renewables, yeah?
SGA: You’re really not getting how this works.
All of the above measures are things an independent country can do. But Scotland in SNP/Wings eyes Scotland will be independent within the EU, i.e. not independent at all.
The EU is set on tax harmonisation. They already stipulate the minimum VAT level. They plan on equalising corporation tax across the member states. The direction of travel is quite clear, an EU tax system.
Which of course means that ultimately rather than having more power or 'levers to grow the economy' Scotland would actually have fewer, and they'd be controlled by the EU. Which is a much bigger and unequal a partner than England will ever be. They will control (or not) immigration. They'll set tax rates. They'll handle defence. We'll get a say of course, but a very small voice on the far periphery in amongst the powerhouses of the mainland. And to think you're moaning about being outvoted in Westminster.
Go and ask some Greeks what they think about being independent in the EU and being able to run their own economy without interference.It's intellectually bankrupt to suggest jumping from a small union of 4 to a large union of 28 and growing will give Scotland more control over anything. My Mum's golden retriever wouldn't fall for this s
te and he's a dog. And a stupid one at that.
technodup said:
I'd suggest either he doesn't really get how it works, or more likely he is leading people like yourself down the garden path.
All of the above measures are things an independent country can do. But Scotland in SNP/Wings eyes Scotland will be independent within the EU, i.e. not independent at all.
The EU is set on tax harmonisation. They already stipulate the minimum VAT level. They plan on equalising corporation tax across the member states. The direction of travel is quite clear, an EU tax system.
Which of course means that ultimately rather than having more power or 'levers to grow the economy' Scotland would actually have fewer, and they'd be controlled by the EU. Which is a much bigger and unequal a partner than England will ever be. They will control (or not) immigration. They'll set tax rates. They'll handle defence. We'll get a say of course, but a very small voice on the far periphery in amongst the powerhouses of the mainland. And to think you're moaning about being outvoted in Westminster. Go and ask some Greeks what they think about being independent in the EU and being able to run their own economy without interference.
It's intellectually bankrupt to suggest jumping from a small union of 4 to a large union of 28 and growing will give Scotland more control over anything. My Mum's golden retriever wouldn't fall for this ste and he's a dog. And a stupid one at that.
And here's a thing: I don't want to be in the EU either as indy Scotland or the UK and I voted leave. Just because the SNP wants to be in it doesn't mean I want to be or that we will be.All of the above measures are things an independent country can do. But Scotland in SNP/Wings eyes Scotland will be independent within the EU, i.e. not independent at all.
The EU is set on tax harmonisation. They already stipulate the minimum VAT level. They plan on equalising corporation tax across the member states. The direction of travel is quite clear, an EU tax system.
Which of course means that ultimately rather than having more power or 'levers to grow the economy' Scotland would actually have fewer, and they'd be controlled by the EU. Which is a much bigger and unequal a partner than England will ever be. They will control (or not) immigration. They'll set tax rates. They'll handle defence. We'll get a say of course, but a very small voice on the far periphery in amongst the powerhouses of the mainland. And to think you're moaning about being outvoted in Westminster.
Go and ask some Greeks what they think about being independent in the EU and being able to run their own economy without interference.It's intellectually bankrupt to suggest jumping from a small union of 4 to a large union of 28 and growing will give Scotland more control over anything. My Mum's golden retriever wouldn't fall for this s
te and he's a dog. And a stupid one at that.So don't bother telling me what can and can't be done in the EU to deflect from what can and can't be done in the UK.
GoneAnon said:
I think you should take a whoosh parrot if you can't tell the difference between:
A) an analogy for me making my own decisions, being undoubtedly worse off in the short term but that still being the correct decision, and it paying off years down the line, and
B) a "look what I've got" post.
Give yourself a laugh - go back and read the thing I copied from Wings and see some of the things that an independent Scottish government MIGHT want to do but currently can't within the UK. Then come back and point out the flaws in the arguments.
No whoosh parrot required or deserved. As I suspected, you have no answer at all. It is the depth of desperation not to mention utter embarrassment to defer to Wings Over Scotland drivel. Provide a proper response with reasoned argument over what should be done and its subsequent positive effect in quantitative form or your opinion that will remain what it is i.e. laughable.A) an analogy for me making my own decisions, being undoubtedly worse off in the short term but that still being the correct decision, and it paying off years down the line, and
B) a "look what I've got" post.
Give yourself a laugh - go back and read the thing I copied from Wings and see some of the things that an independent Scottish government MIGHT want to do but currently can't within the UK. Then come back and point out the flaws in the arguments.
GoneAnon said:
And here's a thing: I don't want to be in the EU either as indy Scotland or the UK and I voted leave. Just because the SNP wants to be in it doesn't mean I want to be or that we will be.
So don't bother telling me what can and can't be done in the EU to deflect from what can and can't be done in the UK.
What you want is neither here nor there. They're proposing Scotland in the EU. So it's entirely relevant to point out the inconsistencies in that manifesto.So don't bother telling me what can and can't be done in the EU to deflect from what can and can't be done in the UK.
It's bulls
t of course, but that's what they want. And as for deflecting, you haven't answered why you think you'll be better off in an indy Scotland...GoneAnon said:
And here's a thing: I don't want to be in the EU either as indy Scotland or the UK and I voted leave. Just because the SNP wants to be in it doesn't mean I want to be or that we will be.
Bingo! One of the 1/3 - voting for something you don't want on a promise you'll get something you do want. SNP have you not so much on the hook as filleted, battered and served with chips and brown sauce.Mug!
Edited by r11co on Friday 21st October 20:09
The indy ref was not on my mind when I cast a vote. I don't think the time is right but if it comes along I will cast my vote.
I don't feel the need to mark your intelligence down because you hold a different point of view.
Why do you feel the need to belittle me and others who hold a point of view that you don't share?
I don't feel the need to mark your intelligence down because you hold a different point of view.
Why do you feel the need to belittle me and others who hold a point of view that you don't share?
GoneAnon said:
Yes, I'll accept that argument.
But then, when I left home at 19 and suddenly having to pay my own bills, I was very much worse off than I would have been if I'd stayed at home with my mum.
But now, some years later with a nice house almost mortgage free, a few cars to play with, money in the bank and a decent pile of stuff, would I change history and go back to an easier life at mums?
Not a chance!!!
Would I be better off? I might have more stuff and more cash but being able to invest in my own property and make my own decisions, I undoubtedly have a higher net worth now than I would have done otherwise - especially if I handed all my earnings to her and got pocket money back, let her choose my holidays, clothes, shops I could deal with etc.
The thing is, currently it is not like that situation. It's a bit like you leaving home and things being worse, but you get to make your own choices and see how your choices worked out. But then, when I left home at 19 and suddenly having to pay my own bills, I was very much worse off than I would have been if I'd stayed at home with my mum.
But now, some years later with a nice house almost mortgage free, a few cars to play with, money in the bank and a decent pile of stuff, would I change history and go back to an easier life at mums?
Not a chance!!!
Would I be better off? I might have more stuff and more cash but being able to invest in my own property and make my own decisions, I undoubtedly have a higher net worth now than I would have done otherwise - especially if I handed all my earnings to her and got pocket money back, let her choose my holidays, clothes, shops I could deal with etc.
When it comes to the SNP they outlined enough things pre-referendum that you can go back and see how they worked out. As it is they got a lot wrong and Scotland (as things stand) very much got things wrong. Oil is an easy one. The average price of oil over the long term is around $50 a barrel. Yet for some reason the SNP used a much higher average in their calculations for the case for independence. They got it very wrong.
So in your personal example it's a bit like you moving out and making your own choices, they worked out badly and so you get your mum to cover the costs of those bad mistakes.
I don't believe the politicians in Westminister are particularly better or worse in their decision making, however the UK economy is more diverse than the Scottish economy, and so even if politicians make somewhat wrong decisions the diversity of the economy covers mistakes. For example when the banks collapsed oil helped cover some of the costs. However now that oil has collapsed the financial service will be covering some of the loss from oil.
Scotland on it's own will very much more become boom and bust due to the much smaller diversity it will have due to being a lot smaller. OR it will end up having issues as part of the EU because there is less ability to make decisions for Scotland and so for example one of the popular things of having low corporation tax to encourage companies to set up a base in your country won't be able to happen. Then you can't weaken your currency etc and so you can't help that way. So you can end up in a situation like Greece where it is basically impossible to recover after the bust from a recession. Just compare Greece with Iceland for example to see what being outside the EU will let you do if you actually want to fix things. I'm certainly not a strong Brexiter, but the way Greece has been treated is absolutely shocking in many ways.
I think Scotland would do ok outside of the UK, but I think it would be much more volatile between good and bad times. The thing is the SNP is arguing to be outside a small union to be inside a much larger union, which has shown itself to not care about small countries over the "benefit for the greater good". Which is madness. Plus the way the party conducts itself makes me dislike it intensely.
GoneAnon said:
The indy ref was not on my mind when I cast a vote. I don't think the time is right but if it comes along I will cast my vote.
I don't feel the need to mark your intelligence down because you hold a different point of view.
Why do you feel the need to belittle me and others who hold a point of view that you don't share?
If you didn't keep on referring to that Racist's Wings site, you might get a more sympathetic hearing.I don't feel the need to mark your intelligence down because you hold a different point of view.
Why do you feel the need to belittle me and others who hold a point of view that you don't share?
So far as I recall I've posted Wings stuff twice. Referring back to something I posted earlier surely doesn't count? If it is more than that, even with repeats, it isn't much more.
But I'm not looking for sympathy, thanks, just a little common decency or (dare I say) respect?
I'm not paid to come up with government policy, I don't get any more say than anyone else in how the country is run, but my vote counts every bit as much as anyone elses.
Thhe thread really is full of haters and it would surely be better for all us independence-minded folk to have our own thread and let all the unionists stay here and congratulate each other on how clever their latest insult has been.
Like most folk I know, I just get on with my real life because, believe it or not, I don't spend much/any time talking about the constitutional arrangements outside of here and when the subject comes up it is ALWAYS a unionist who starts the discussion.
But I'm not looking for sympathy, thanks, just a little common decency or (dare I say) respect?
I'm not paid to come up with government policy, I don't get any more say than anyone else in how the country is run, but my vote counts every bit as much as anyone elses.
Thhe thread really is full of haters and it would surely be better for all us independence-minded folk to have our own thread and let all the unionists stay here and congratulate each other on how clever their latest insult has been.
Like most folk I know, I just get on with my real life because, believe it or not, I don't spend much/any time talking about the constitutional arrangements outside of here and when the subject comes up it is ALWAYS a unionist who starts the discussion.
GoneAnon said:
I'm not paid to come up with government policy, I don't get any more say than anyone else in how the country is run, but my vote counts every bit as much as anyone elses.
No your vote is worth more than mine. Currently average electorate in a Scots constituency is 66,000 whereas the average for England is 72,000 (2010 figures). In addition you have your own parliament over which I can't vote and your SNP MP's vote on matters in England which have no effect in Scotland (hopefully EVEL will change this). Fox hunting and Sunday opening hours come to mind. So if any part of the UK has a electoral deficit it's England. Even after the boundary changes you will still have a few Scots constituencies which will be wildly over represented. If this situation was reversed I can just imagine the complaints emanating from Sturgeon and Co. GoneAnon said:
Why do you feel the need to belittle me and others who hold a point of view that you don't share?
This has nothing to do with differing viewpoints. It is about duplicity and dishonesty. You come from the same camp as erstwhile SNP justice secretary Kenny Macaskill - the man who said he was willing to do 'the wrong thing for the right reasons'. How many times does the wrong thing have to be done and harm caused to people in pursuit of the goal that is the 'right thing' that the majority of people have already rejected?You bring contempt on yourself because you have indicated you are willing to support causes you disagree with in pursuit of a goal that you may or may not achieve. The very definition of the useful idiot.
Edited by r11co on Friday 21st October 22:26
GoneAnon said:
So far as I recall I've posted Wings stuff twice. Referring back to something I posted earlier surely doesn't count? If it is more than that, even with repeats, it isn't much more.
But I'm not looking for sympathy, thanks, just a little common decency or (dare I say) respect?
I'm not paid to come up with government policy, I don't get any more say than anyone else in how the country is run, but my vote counts every bit as much as anyone elses.
Thhe thread really is full of haters and it would surely be better for all us independence-minded folk to have our own thread and let all the unionists stay here and congratulate each other on how clever their latest insult has been.
Like most folk I know, I just get on with my real life because, believe it or not, I don't spend much/any time talking about the constitutional arrangements outside of here and when the subject comes up it is ALWAYS a unionist who starts the discussion.
Its quite simple, the cause of the irritation lies entirely with Nationalist tBut I'm not looking for sympathy, thanks, just a little common decency or (dare I say) respect?
I'm not paid to come up with government policy, I don't get any more say than anyone else in how the country is run, but my vote counts every bit as much as anyone elses.
Thhe thread really is full of haters and it would surely be better for all us independence-minded folk to have our own thread and let all the unionists stay here and congratulate each other on how clever their latest insult has been.
Like most folk I know, I just get on with my real life because, believe it or not, I don't spend much/any time talking about the constitutional arrangements outside of here and when the subject comes up it is ALWAYS a unionist who starts the discussion.
ts who seem to take the view that "Democracy is fine as long as we win"Meanwhile
1) They lost the vote and then, it seems, lied about respecting the result.
2) Perpetuating the campaign for independence in the face of that is a stupid distraction that the rest of the country really doesn't need. Its costing, time, effort, is disruptive and destabilising in Scotland and to a lesser extent elsewhere - and we have much more important things to deal with than appeasing a small minority of ingrates.
The country (and Scotland especially) would be a great deal better off if Nationalists recognised, accept and respected the fact that they represent about 3-4% of the population of the UK and the other 96% really wish that they would STFU so that we can try and get on with life!
It'll never happen of course because so many of them are little more than bigoted
s. No matter how its dressed up it's all about (a hatred of) the English, always has been, always will be. The only minor problem is that Scotland would be on its arse but for the English, inconvenient though that may be.Is it irritating? yep, its really f
king irritating, so why would you be surprised at a bit of vitriol over it? Like a lot of people I used to have a fair amount of time for Scotland. I lived there, I was educated there, I have family there. These days? I avoid going there & I really don't care for it much any more - and I don't think I'm alone in that. You reap what you sow.
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 21st October 22:41
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff