Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
Leithen said:
Edinburger said:
Never sene coverage of Scottish tennis, rugby, bowls, judo, and all the other sports we're strong in?
I can only assume you've never listend to the commentary during an England game either?
Sportscene is Footballscene. There is barely any coverage of any other sport within the programme. Call it for what it is - a programme soley interested in a single sport that we are crap at. I can only assume you've never listend to the commentary during an England game either?
BBC Scotland could provide an enormous boost to all the sportsmen and women who do compete successfully on the international stage but desperately lack exposure to help with sponsorship etc.
Two programmes with names that actually reflect the programme content.
England games commentary? Rarely listen, but at least they make it to world finals.
In my view, we do recognise and celebrate a huge variety of sports in Scotland - where we are successful and where we are not so successful.
Jeez, we even give the Scottish cricket team coverage and I know not one single person in Scotland who plays Scotland!
glazbagun said:
NoNeed said:
There is no excuse for this policy of division and hate and despite you saying that it has been explained, it hasn't. Quite simply they don't want English students, they hate the English.
I wouldn't say it's great either personally (Paid Scottish fees under Blair and English fees in Birmingham myself, so have never benefitted from the SNP's abolishment. Timing has never been my strong point.), but surely if state funded tuition fees is so important for rUK voters, they shouldn't have elected officials who increased the fees to 9K/PA and abolished maintainence grants? Lib Dem voters get a pass I guess.Edited by NoNeed on Monday 10th August 22:25
Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
AC43 said:
Edinburger said:
AC43 said:
OpulentBob said:
"Fair and equal"?
So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
You can if you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish.So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
If you are English, however, you are told to "f
k right off" and "keep on sending the Barnett money" apparently.
The rationale for this has been explained several times through each volume.
The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
NoNeed said:
glazbagun said:
NoNeed said:
There is no excuse for this policy of division and hate and despite you saying that it has been explained, it hasn't. Quite simply they don't want English students, they hate the English.
I wouldn't say it's great either personally (Paid Scottish fees under Blair and English fees in Birmingham myself, so have never benefitted from the SNP's abolishment. Timing has never been my strong point.), but surely if state funded tuition fees is so important for rUK voters, they shouldn't have elected officials who increased the fees to 9K/PA and abolished maintainence grants? Lib Dem voters get a pass I guess.Edited by NoNeed on Monday 10th August 22:25
Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
They hate the English is the only explanation that makes any sense, I have yet to hear one that even comes close.
Like I say, the universities are already paid for, English students would not make costs rise but would ensure the best and most worthy students are selected.
Do you realise that English universities charge the highest tuition fees in Europe?
Edinburger said:
AC43 said:
Edinburger said:
AC43 said:
OpulentBob said:
"Fair and equal"?
So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
You can if you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish.So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
If you are English, however, you are told to "f
k right off" and "keep on sending the Barnett money" apparently.The rationale for this has been explained several times through each volume.
The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
Edinburger said:
AC43 said:
OpulentBob said:
"Fair and equal"?
So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
You can if you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish.So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
If you are English, however, you are told to "f
k right off" and "keep on sending the Barnett money" apparently.The rationale for this has been explained several times through each volume.
Trollburger said:
How on earth can you say the universities are already paid for?!
Do you realise that English universities charge the highest tuition fees in Europe?
We were talking about Scottish universities(but you know that and can't resist trolling as usual), there are no student fees and the bill is picked up by government, hence already paid for. That bill wont get bigger by allowing English students unless they decide to increase the amount of students they allow.Do you realise that English universities charge the highest tuition fees in Europe?
It's an anti-English policy, nothing more nothing less.
You couldn't even resist having a pop at the English in your reply yet we are not even talking about English universities, we are talking about the blatant discrimination against English students as opposed to student from any other European nation.
Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 11th August 08:53
Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 11th August 08:53
Trollburger said:
I hate the English? Wow. That's some claim.
For starters, my wife is English. My kids are English. I have many English friends and family. I own property in England and I work for an English company.
Yeah, I must really hate the English.
I'll reply to AC re. the university point.
So why do you support an anti-English party that has anti-English policies?For starters, my wife is English. My kids are English. I have many English friends and family. I own property in England and I work for an English company.
Yeah, I must really hate the English.
I'll reply to AC re. the university point.
Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 11th August 08:54
Edinburger said:
A quick copy and paste in the interests of time...
The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
The problem with this "explanation" is that it is deeply flawed. The simple fact is that the number of places available in Scottish universities is funded by the Scottish Government. Nobody is suggesting that the Scottish Government should fund tens of thousands of extra places, whether that be for English students or any other nationality of student. The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
The available places should be awarded to applicants on the basis of merit, and those awarded places should ALL BE TREATED THE SAME when it comes to fee arrangements.
The fact that 10,000 English kids might apply is irrelevant. The universities don't have to give them all places. So there would be no additional pressure on the Scottish exchequer as a result of allowing those English students that do successfully get into Scottish universities to enjoy the same free education as every other student attending - including those from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Austria, Denmark, Luxembourg, Greece, etc etc etc etc.
So why would the Scottish Government ONLY charge the English? Strip away the silly (non) explanations and we can clearly see the policy for what it is (and was always intended to be) :- divisive and anti English
andymadmak said:
Edinburger said:
A quick copy and paste in the interests of time...
The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
The problem with this "explanation" is that it is deeply flawed. The simple fact is that the number of places available in Scottish universities is funded by the Scottish Government. Nobody is suggesting that the Scottish Government should fund tens of thousands of extra places, whether that be for English students or any other nationality of student. The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
The available places should be awarded to applicants on the basis of merit, and those awarded places should ALL BE TREATED THE SAME when it comes to fee arrangements.
The fact that 10,000 English kids might apply is irrelevant. The universities don't have to give them all places. So there would be no additional pressure on the Scottish exchequer as a result of allowing those English students that do successfully get into Scottish universities to enjoy the same free education as every other student attending - including those from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Austria, Denmark, Luxembourg, Greece, etc etc etc etc.
So why would the Scottish Government ONLY charge the English? Strip away the silly (non) explanations and we can clearly see the policy for what it is (and was always intended to be) :- divisive and anti English
Divisive and anti- English
Nationalist scum can't exist without somebody to hate and the Scottish Nazi Party are no different, utter scum.
Edinburger said:
AC43 said:
OpulentBob said:
"Fair and equal"?
So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
You can if you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish.So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
If you are English, however, you are told to "f
k right off" and "keep on sending the Barnett money" apparently.The rationale for this has been explained several times through each volume.
glazbagun said:
I wouldn't say it's great either personally (Paid Scottish fees under Blair and English fees in Birmingham myself, so have never benefitted from the SNP's abolishment. Timing has never been my strong point.), but surely if state funded tuition fees is so important for rUK voters, they shouldn't have elected officials who increased the fees to 9K/PA and abolished maintainence grants? Lib Dem voters get a pass I guess.
Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
These elected officials you speak of wernt elected by us; they were elected by the Scots.Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
The Higher Education Bill was backed by 316 votes to 311 at Westminster. Some 46 Scottish Labour MPs voted with the government, even though the plans will not apply north of the border. Five voted against and three abstained.
But education is devolved isnt it
NoNeed said:
Trollburger said:
How on earth can you say the universities are already paid for?!
Do you realise that English universities charge the highest tuition fees in Europe?
We were talking about Scottish universities(but you know that and can't resist trolling as usual), there are no student fees and the bill is picked up by government, hence already paid for. That bill wont get bigger by allowing English students unless they decide to increase the amount of students they allow.Do you realise that English universities charge the highest tuition fees in Europe?
It's an anti-English policy, nothing more nothing less.
You couldn't even resist having a pop at the English in your reply yet we are not even talking about English universities, we are talking about the blatant discrimination against English students as opposed to student from any other European nation.
Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 11th August 08:53
Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 11th August 08:53
The below graphic illustrates the difference in tuition fees across Europe.
If you lived in the West Midlands would you go to Birmingham University and pay or take a train up to Scotland and study there 'free if charge'?
It's Scotland's budget being spent remember...
Garvin said:
Edinburger said:
AC43 said:
Edinburger said:
AC43 said:
OpulentBob said:
"Fair and equal"?
So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
You can if you are German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, Belgian, Norwegian, Dutch, Austrian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Irish, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Romanian, Slovakian or Swedish.So I can send my English kids to Scotland for free university tuition, can I?
If you are English, however, you are told to "f
k right off" and "keep on sending the Barnett money" apparently.The rationale for this has been explained several times through each volume.
The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
NoNeed said:
Trollburger said:
I hate the English? Wow. That's some claim.
For starters, my wife is English. My kids are English. I have many English friends and family. I own property in England and I work for an English company.
Yeah, I must really hate the English.
I'll reply to AC re. the university point.
So why do you support an anti-English party that has anti-English policies?For starters, my wife is English. My kids are English. I have many English friends and family. I own property in England and I work for an English company.
Yeah, I must really hate the English.
I'll reply to AC re. the university point.
Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 11th August 08:54
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