Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
Please explain Edinburger , how would Scotlands budget for free University places be affected by applicants from England if the number of places offered did not rise from the number on offer today? Surely the number of places is the number of places.
If the available places are all intended to be free, it makes not one jot of difference who takes the places, just so long as those students awarded the places are given them on merit rather than simply their nationality!
If the places are awarded on merit, then it matters not whether 100,000 apply from England. You'd still only accept (and pay for) the ones awarded places on merit, FROM THE LIMITED AND DEFINED NUMBER OF PLACES THAT WERE GOING TO BE MADE AVAILABLE ANYWAY TO ALL STUDENTS
You constantly repeating stuff about Scottish budgets being wrecked is utter garbage!
If the available places are all intended to be free, it makes not one jot of difference who takes the places, just so long as those students awarded the places are given them on merit rather than simply their nationality!
If the places are awarded on merit, then it matters not whether 100,000 apply from England. You'd still only accept (and pay for) the ones awarded places on merit, FROM THE LIMITED AND DEFINED NUMBER OF PLACES THAT WERE GOING TO BE MADE AVAILABLE ANYWAY TO ALL STUDENTS
You constantly repeating stuff about Scottish budgets being wrecked is utter garbage!
andymadmak said:
Edinburger said:
A quick copy and paste in the interests of time...
The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
The problem with this "explanation" is that it is deeply flawed. The simple fact is that the number of places available in Scottish universities is funded by the Scottish Government. Nobody is suggesting that the Scottish Government should fund tens of thousands of extra places, whether that be for English students or any other nationality of student. The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected government has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10,000s+ of students may decide to do that.
In that case, because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants. Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Government to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students....
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters.
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
The available places should be awarded to applicants on the basis of merit, and those awarded places should ALL BE TREATED THE SAME when it comes to fee arrangements.
The fact that 10,000 English kids might apply is irrelevant. The universities don't have to give them all places. So there would be no additional pressure on the Scottish exchequer as a result of allowing those English students that do successfully get into Scottish universities to enjoy the same free education as every other student attending - including those from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Austria, Denmark, Luxembourg, Greece, etc etc etc etc.
So why would the Scottish Government ONLY charge the English? Strip away the silly (non) explanations and we can clearly see the policy for what it is (and was always intended to be) :- divisive and anti English
andymadmak said:
Please explain Edinburger , how would Scotlands budget for free University places be affected by applicants from England if the number of places offered did not rise from the number on offer today? Surely the number of places is the number of places.
If the available places are all intended to be free, it makes not one jot of difference who takes the places, just so long as those students awarded the places are given them on merit rather than simply their nationality!
If the places are awarded on merit, then it matters not whether 100,000 apply from England. You'd still only accept (and pay for) the ones awarded places on merit, FROM THE LIMITED AND DEFINED NUMBER OF PLACES THAT WERE GOING TO BE MADE AVAILABLE ANYWAY TO ALL STUDENTS
You constantly repeating stuff about Scottish budgets being wrecked is utter garbage!
Of course the number of places is the number of places. Can't change that. My last post might help to answer this.If the available places are all intended to be free, it makes not one jot of difference who takes the places, just so long as those students awarded the places are given them on merit rather than simply their nationality!
If the places are awarded on merit, then it matters not whether 100,000 apply from England. You'd still only accept (and pay for) the ones awarded places on merit, FROM THE LIMITED AND DEFINED NUMBER OF PLACES THAT WERE GOING TO BE MADE AVAILABLE ANYWAY TO ALL STUDENTS
You constantly repeating stuff about Scottish budgets being wrecked is utter garbage!
Edinburger said:
I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.
like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be? 
Edinburger said:
I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.
I do find the fact that the Scottish government dont offer any help to students wanting to study elsewhere in the UK quite an insular policy.The truth is that the SNP have introduced a "quota" for Scottish students so far fewer scots will be offered places through clearing than English or European. Scotland doesnt have a free university for all policy at all it has a free for the lucky few and expect those not able to get into a scottish uni's to pay just like the rest of the UK.
Trollburger said:
You didn't go to university, did you? Jeez how hard is it to understand?
The below graphic illustrates the difference in tuition fees across Europe.
If you lived in the West Midlands would you go to Birmingham University and pay or take a train up to Scotland and study there 'free if charge'?
It's Scotland's budget being spent remember...
Completely irrelevant!!! all those other nations have acess to scotland universities free of charge, onky the English are subjected to the hatred of you and your friends. well them and jews.The below graphic illustrates the difference in tuition fees across Europe.
If you lived in the West Midlands would you go to Birmingham University and pay or take a train up to Scotland and study there 'free if charge'?
It's Scotland's budget being spent remember...
We are talking about Scottish universities, but nice Trolling
Edited by NoNeed on Tuesday 11th August 14:00
barryrs said:
glazbagun said:
I wouldn't say it's great either personally (Paid Scottish fees under Blair and English fees in Birmingham myself, so have never benefitted from the SNP's abolishment. Timing has never been my strong point.), but surely if state funded tuition fees is so important for rUK voters, they shouldn't have elected officials who increased the fees to 9K/PA and abolished maintainence grants? Lib Dem voters get a pass I guess.
Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
These elected officials you speak of wernt elected by us; they were elected by the Scots.Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
The Higher Education Bill was backed by 316 votes to 311 at Westminster. Some 46 Scottish Labour MPs voted with the government, even though the plans will not apply north of the border. Five voted against and three abstained.
But education is devolved isnt it
But the elected officials I speak of were elected by the rUK. The Higher Education Bill was in 2004, that was three elections ago! Since then the Conservatives increased tuition fees to £9K in 2011, and were rewarded with an outright majority in the next election. In 2015 they have pledged to abolish Maintainence grants which currently help half a million students from poorer backgrounds.
The Lib-Dems appear to have been punished for their u-turn on tuition fees, but if their supporters defected to Labour (who proposed to cut them to ~£6K in their manifesto), England still voted for an outright Conservative majority. Tuition fees seem to be the will of those the rUK sends to Westminster.
Edinburger said:
Given that you have conceded already that "the number of spaces is the number of spaces" (and thus there is no additional risk to the Scottish exchequer from English students) I ask again what possible justification there can be for charging only English students?
barryrs said:
glazbagun said:
I wouldn't say it's great either personally (Paid Scottish fees under Blair and English fees in Birmingham myself, so have never benefitted from the SNP's abolishment. Timing has never been my strong point.), but surely if state funded tuition fees is so important for rUK voters, they shouldn't have elected officials who increased the fees to 9K/PA and abolished maintainence grants? Lib Dem voters get a pass I guess.
Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
These elected officials you speak of wernt elected by us; they were elected by the Scots.Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.
I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.
The Higher Education Bill was backed by 316 votes to 311 at Westminster. Some 46 Scottish Labour MPs voted with the government, even though the plans will not apply north of the border. Five voted against and three abstained.
But education is devolved isnt it
ds. Edinburger said:
You didn't go to university, did you? Jeez how hard is it to understand?
The below graphic illustrates the difference in tuition fees across Europe.
If you lived in the West Midlands would you go to Birmingham University and pay or take a train up to Scotland and study there 'free if charge'?
It's Scotland's budget being spent remember...
On one level I tend to agree with you. The defect in this process is that the UK has a high level of transferability: you can upsticks to Aberdeen quite easily from Brum. It would indeed put pressure on the availability of local students to attend a local university.The below graphic illustrates the difference in tuition fees across Europe.
If you lived in the West Midlands would you go to Birmingham University and pay or take a train up to Scotland and study there 'free if charge'?
It's Scotland's budget being spent remember...
On the other hand you could argue that that is a complete load of hogwash as it's the result of looking down the wrong end of the telescope.
1) The Scottish gov, if ever independent, would immediately find itself up in Strasbourg for failing to provide full and equal access to all citizens from member states including rUK. Right now they are deliberately fudging it.
2) The cap on English numbers has been removed so numbers are not finite. In fact the universities have been including larger number of English students as a useful revenue stream. There have been multiple complaints about lower attainment English students getting in in advance of Scottish top graders, and indeed a concern that increased numbers is damaging standards.
3) this whole mess is caused by the Scottish gov striking down tuition fees and creating an artificial distortion in an optimal 'area' (i.e. the UK). It inhibits Scottish students from studying in other areas of the UK, and likewise causes funding difficulties for the Scottish universities. It also creates undue resentment (pace rest of the thread), with the reality (not perception!) that the rUK students are being used a milch cow.
4) as even your map suggests, providing Free education is increasingly unviable especially in light of the Single Market.
andymadmak said:
So why would the Scottish Government ONLY charge the English? Strip away the silly (non) explanations and we can clearly see the policy for what it is (and was always intended to be) :- divisive and anti English
Worth noting it affects the Welsh & N/Irish, too:http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/s...
Was it Labour or the SNP who introduced this addition? This is the first thing I could find on it (was in England at the time), suggesting it was an SNP invention, I can't remember if this was the case before the fees were hiked too.
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/jun/29/e...
Personally, I agree with treating English Students the same as any other EU country, although I believe in local weighting to help the countries own youth as opposed to pure meritocracy. I do wonder if Scottish universities are actually more likely to accept English students over other EU/Scottish students of equal merit due to the fees that can be charged. In Brum we had tons of Mandarin students who must have been subsidising half of the course, the fees can be eye watering!
Edinburger said:
I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids and all other EU kids except English). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.
Added the bit you missed. Can see why it is perceived as anti English.Seems to be causing a few problems though. One article from a few months ago, and perhaps posted already, really can't remember.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13521485.And...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityedu...
Ridgemont said:
Edinburger said:
You didn't go to university, did you? Jeez how hard is it to understand?
The below graphic illustrates the difference in tuition fees across Europe.
If you lived in the West Midlands would you go to Birmingham University and pay or take a train up to Scotland and study there 'free if charge'?
It's Scotland's budget being spent remember...
On one level I tend to agree with you. The defect in this process is that the UK has a high level of transferability: you can upsticks to Aberdeen quite easily from Brum. It would indeed put pressure on the availability of local students to attend a local university.The below graphic illustrates the difference in tuition fees across Europe.
If you lived in the West Midlands would you go to Birmingham University and pay or take a train up to Scotland and study there 'free if charge'?
It's Scotland's budget being spent remember...
On the other hand you could argue that that is a complete load of hogwash as it's the result of looking down the wrong end of the telescope.
1) The Scottish gov, if ever independent, would immediately find itself up in Strasbourg for failing to provide full and equal access to all citizens from member states including rUK. Right now they are deliberately fudging it.
2) The cap on English numbers has been removed so numbers are not finite. In fact the universities have been including larger number of English students as a useful revenue stream. There have been multiple complaints about lower attainment English students getting in in advance of Scottish top graders, and indeed a concern that increased numbers is damaging standards.
3) this whole mess is caused by the Scottish gov striking down tuition fees and creating an artificial distortion in an optimal 'area' (i.e. the UK). It inhibits Scottish students from studying in other areas of the UK, and likewise causes funding difficulties for the Scottish universities. It also creates undue resentment (pace rest of the thread), with the reality (not perception!) that the rUK students are being used a milch cow.
4) as even your map suggests, providing Free education is increasingly unviable especially in light of the Single Market.
And yes, that would absolutely have to change of Scotland did become independent for obvious reasons.
SNP ministers simple want to ensure that Scottish universities have a fair and aprooriate proportion of Scottish students.
Is that so bad?
OpulentBob said:
My take on it is that the SNP, and it's supporters, are racist (yes yes I know we're all white homo sapiens, but replace with "bigoted s with an anti-English chip on their shoulder so big you could see it from the fking Orkneys" if it makes you feel better).
I respect your right to hold that view but it's wrong. I find it sad and unbeleivable that so many people think this.s with an anti-English chip on their shoulder so big you could see it from the fking Orkneys" if it makes you feel better). andymadmak said:
Edinburger said:
I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.
like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be? Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff