Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

[Edinburger]

barryrs said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

I do find the fact that the Scottish government dont offer any help to students wanting to study elsewhere in the UK quite an insular policy.

The truth is that the SNP have introduced a "quota" for Scottish students so far fewer scots will be offered places through clearing than English or European. Scotland doesnt have a free university for all policy at all it has a free for the lucky few and expect those not able to get into a scottish uni's to pay just like the rest of the UK.

Is there not a cultural problem whereby too many kids go to university and end up in mediocre job with a degree?

Isn't university for the "lucky few" - from an intellectual basis?

[andymadmak]

glazbagun said:

Worth noting it affects the Welsh & N/Irish, too:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/s...

Thanks. I was not aware of that. So it's an rUK think for the Scottish.........

[Edinburger]

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

Hmm, and yet the answer you give - "why should the Scottish Government provide free education to citizens of countries who's own Governments charge for it ?" is deeply misleading given that this is EXACTLY what the Scottish Government does for citizens of other EU countries....

Given that you have conceded already that "the number of spaces is the number of spaces" (and thus there is no additional risk to the Scottish exchequer from English students) I ask again what possible justification there can be for charging only English students?

It's not only English students who are charged - there are two other countries of the UK called Wales and Northern Ireland and their students are also charged.

As for why? I think that's been covered enough times.

[s2art]

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be?

I have explained why - numerous times. Perhaps you refuse to accept that?

Your 'explanation' doesnt hold water. A fairer system would be to allow the university to charge fees, but provide grants to locally born students. Similar to what used to be the case. It would be up to the local council to decide how big a grant to give. That would enable scottish students to access all of the UK unis, and allow the best scottish unis to expand and provide more places.

[andymadmak]

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be?

I have explained why - numerous times. Perhaps you refuse to accept that?

No you have no explained why. You have put some words on a post, but that is not an explanation!

Shall I explain why?

1. You say its cos the English (rUK) students should not be allowed to flood Scottish Universities because this would damage the Scottish exchequer
BUT you then concede that the number of places is the number of places, and that therefore there is NO risk to the Scottish exchequer because the Scottish Universities do NOT have to accept the application of every rUK student.

2. You then say "why should the Scottish provide free education to students to rUK students when their own Governments will not pay for it"
BUT you post a map/picture which shows umpteen EU countries that also charge for higher education, but to which Scotland DOES provide a free service for their citizens.

So both your so called arguments are entirely without merit. And that leaves the question WHY DOES SCOTLAND CHARGE rUK STUDENTS ONLY!!!!!!!!????????


Don't blame me for not being willing to accept your blatant untruths and manipulations as an acceptable answer.

[Edinburger]

glazbagun said:

andymadmak said:

So why would the Scottish Government ONLY charge the English? Strip away the silly (non) explanations and we can clearly see the policy for what it is (and was always intended to be) :- divisive and anti English

Worth noting it affects the Welsh & N/Irish, too:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/s...

Was it Labour or the SNP who introduced this addition? This is the first thing I could find on it (was in England at the time), suggesting it was an SNP invention, I can't remember if this was the case before the fees were hiked too.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/jun/29/e...

Personally, I agree with treating English Students the same as any other EU country, although I believe in local weighting to help the countries own youth as opposed to pure meritocracy. I do wonder if Scottish universities are actually more likely to accept English students over other EU/Scottish students of equal merit due to the fees that can be charged. In Brum we had tons of Mandarin students who must have been subsidising half of the course, the fees can be eye watering!

I think it was introduced in or aroubd 2004 so under Jack McConnell (Labour). Wasn't there a controversy because it was Scottish MPs votes which were critical in having it passed in Westminster?

[Edinburger]

s2art said:

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be?

I have explained why - numerous times. Perhaps you refuse to accept that?

Your 'explanation' doesnt hold water. A fairer system would be to allow the university to charge fees, but provide grants to locally born students. Similar to what used to be the case. It would be up to the local council to decide how big a grant to give. That would enable scottish students to access all of the UK unis, and allow the best scottish unis to expand and provide more places.

That may be seen to be fairer (deine: fair) but the Scottish Government has always said that tuition fees should not restrict access to higher eduication for Scottish kids who chose to live and study in Scotland.

[Edinburger]

andymadmak said:

glazbagun said:

Worth noting it affects the Welsh & N/Irish, too:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/s...

Thanks. I was not aware of that. So it's an rUK think for the Scottish.........

Yes - not just English students. rUK and non-EU students.

[Edinburger]

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be?

I have explained why - numerous times. Perhaps you refuse to accept that?

No you have no explained why. You have put some words on a post, but that is not an explanation!

Shall I explain why?

1. You say its cos the English (rUK) students should not be allowed to flood Scottish Universities because this would damage the Scottish exchequer
BUT you then concede that the number of places is the number of places, and that therefore there is NO risk to the Scottish exchequer because the Scottish Universities do NOT have to accept the application of every rUK student.

2. You then say "why should the Scottish provide free education to students to rUK students when their own Governments will not pay for it"
BUT you post a map/picture which shows umpteen EU countries that also charge for higher education, but to which Scotland DOES provide a free service for their citizens.

So both your so called arguments are entirely without merit. And that leaves the question WHY DOES SCOTLAND CHARGE rUK STUDENTS ONLY!!!!!!!!????????


Don't blame me for not being willing to accept your blatant untruths and manipulations as an acceptable answer.

Because under European law, students from other EU member states are entitled to free university education.

[Edinburger]

NoNeed said:

Edinburger said:

NoNeed said:

You call me a troll yet a toolsetter from the West Midlands who presumably has zero connection with Scotland is utterley obsessed by Scotland.

Hilarious!

I am UK citizen am I not? is it not the UK that you're friends hatred is directed at?

Only a few more weeks 'til you're back at school, eh?

[andymadmak]

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be?

I have explained why - numerous times. Perhaps you refuse to accept that?

No you have no explained why. You have put some words on a post, but that is not an explanation!

Shall I explain why?

1. You say its cos the English (rUK) students should not be allowed to flood Scottish Universities because this would damage the Scottish exchequer
BUT you then concede that the number of places is the number of places, and that therefore there is NO risk to the Scottish exchequer because the Scottish Universities do NOT have to accept the application of every rUK student.

2. You then say "why should the Scottish provide free education to students to rUK students when their own Governments will not pay for it"
BUT you post a map/picture which shows umpteen EU countries that also charge for higher education, but to which Scotland DOES provide a free service for their citizens.

So both your so called arguments are entirely without merit. And that leaves the question WHY DOES SCOTLAND CHARGE rUK STUDENTS ONLY!!!!!!!!????????


Don't blame me for not being willing to accept your blatant untruths and manipulations as an acceptable answer.

Because under European law, students from other EU member states are entitled to free university education.

{calm voice on}

No. That explains why those students get it for free. It does NOT explain why rUK students do not.

Keep trying to obfuscate Edinburger. It's really showing you up for what you are.

[Edinburger]

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be?

I have explained why - numerous times. Perhaps you refuse to accept that?

No you have no explained why. You have put some words on a post, but that is not an explanation!

Shall I explain why?

1. You say its cos the English (rUK) students should not be allowed to flood Scottish Universities because this would damage the Scottish exchequer
BUT you then concede that the number of places is the number of places, and that therefore there is NO risk to the Scottish exchequer because the Scottish Universities do NOT have to accept the application of every rUK student.

2. You then say "why should the Scottish provide free education to students to rUK students when their own Governments will not pay for it"
BUT you post a map/picture which shows umpteen EU countries that also charge for higher education, but to which Scotland DOES provide a free service for their citizens.

So both your so called arguments are entirely without merit. And that leaves the question WHY DOES SCOTLAND CHARGE rUK STUDENTS ONLY!!!!!!!!????????


Don't blame me for not being willing to accept your blatant untruths and manipulations as an acceptable answer.

Because under European law, students from other EU member states are entitled to free university education.

{calm voice on}

No. That explains why those students get it for free. It does NOT explain why rUK students do not.

Keep trying to obfuscate Edinburger. It's really showing you up for what you are.

I can see what you're trying to do.

At the end of the day, EU rules prohibit members states from discriminating on the grounds of nationality. So Scotland has to give free university education to students from outside the UK in order to keep university acess free for Scottish students, however, tuition fees on students from England, Northern Ireland and Wales are allowed because the EU does regulate for discrimination within member states.

The geography and population scales simply shows how Scottish universities would be swamped with rUK students looking for free university education blocking access for Scottish kids from free education which our government choose to offer.

[Ridgemont]

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

andymadmak said:

Edinburger said:

I disagree. Places are awarded on merit. University funding has always been an issue and places are funded by ether the student (non-EU, English, etc.) or the Scottish Government (Scottish kids). Why should the Scottish government use it's budget to fund places for students from areas where their government chooses not to fund their education? If Scottish universities are flooded with English kids then that reduces the ability for Scottish kids to access local universities freely.

like.....Germany, France etc etc. Granted their fees are lower than they charge in England....but they still charge. But you only charge the English.... now why might that be?

I have explained why - numerous times. Perhaps you refuse to accept that?

No you have no explained why. You have put some words on a post, but that is not an explanation!

Shall I explain why?

1. You say its cos the English (rUK) students should not be allowed to flood Scottish Universities because this would damage the Scottish exchequer
BUT you then concede that the number of places is the number of places, and that therefore there is NO risk to the Scottish exchequer because the Scottish Universities do NOT have to accept the application of every rUK student.

2. You then say "why should the Scottish provide free education to students to rUK students when their own Governments will not pay for it"
BUT you post a map/picture which shows umpteen EU countries that also charge for higher education, but to which Scotland DOES provide a free service for their citizens.

So both your so called arguments are entirely without merit. And that leaves the question WHY DOES SCOTLAND CHARGE rUK STUDENTS ONLY!!!!!!!!????????


Don't blame me for not being willing to accept your blatant untruths and manipulations as an acceptable answer.

Because under European law, students from other EU member states are entitled to free university education.

{calm voice on}

No. That explains why those students get it for free. It does NOT explain why rUK students do not.

Keep trying to obfuscate Edinburger. It's really showing you up for what you are.

To be fair to him he has stated in response to my post;

Edinburger said:

SNP ministers simple want to ensure that Scottish universities have a fair and aprooriate proportion of Scottish students.

Is that so bad?

In otherwords this is to ensure that the Scottish universities are largely the preserve of Scottish students. It's not an anti English thing in this context. It's a pro Scottish reservation

Now you could argue that that is a ludicrous ethnic stance in the light of both the ambitions of the single market, and in fact principles behind University education, but that's the SNP for you.

[andymadmak]

Edinburger said:

I can see what you're trying to do.

yes - I am trying to get a straight answer from you. Which is like trying to nail custard to the wall!

Edinburger said:

At the end of the day, EU rules prohibit members states from discriminating on the grounds of nationality. So Scotland has to give free university education to students from outside the UK in order to keep university acess free for Scottish students, however, tuition fees on students from England, Northern Ireland and Wales are allowed because the EU does regulate for discrimination within member states.

so far so good. I agree that the EU regs ALLOW Scotland to charge rUK students. But that does not explain WHY they do....

Edinburger said:

The geography and population scales simply shows how Scottish universities would be swamped with rUK students looking for free university education blocking access for Scottish kids from free education which our government choose to offer.

And yet that is a completely specious argument. Because there is NOTHING to suggest that Scottish Universities have to accept applications from rUK students on anything other than grounds of merit.
Unless of course you are suggesting that Scottish kids are too thick to compete with their rUK counterparts?

[Cobnapint]

Edinburger said:

OpulentBob said:

My take on it is that the SNP, and it's supporters, are racist (yes yes I know we're all white homo sapiens, but replace with "bigoted s with an anti-English chip on their shoulder so big you could see it from the fking Orkneys" if it makes you feel better).

I respect your right to hold that view but it's wrong. I find it sad and unbeleivable that so many people think this.

Well just have a listen to any one of Sturgeon's or Salmond's speeches, and you'll get an idea why the English have come to this conclusion.

[Borghetto]

Cobnapint said:

Well just have a listen to any one of Sturgeon's or Salmond's speeches, and you'll get an idea why the English have come to this conclusion.

Or the anti English rantings from any number of rabid SNP's posters on this thread.

[///ajd]

Edinburger said:

OpulentBob said:

My take on it is that the SNP, and it's supporters, are racist (yes yes I know we're all white homo sapiens, but replace with "bigoted s with an anti-English chip on their shoulder so big you could see it from the fking Orkneys" if it makes you feel better).

I respect your right to hold that view but it's wrong. I find it sad and unbeleivable that so many people think this.

It is sad and unbelievable that as s UK citizen you continue to defend this discriminatory nonsense - and then even blame the 'english' for it to confirm you nationalist indoctrination is complete.

[barryrs]

glazbagun said:

barryrs said:

glazbagun said:

I wouldn't say it's great either personally (Paid Scottish fees under Blair and English fees in Birmingham myself, so have never benefitted from the SNP's abolishment. Timing has never been my strong point.), but surely if state funded tuition fees is so important for rUK voters, they shouldn't have elected officials who increased the fees to 9K/PA and abolished maintainence grants? Lib Dem voters get a pass I guess.

Just as the SNP are hypocritical in moaning about Tory income tax cuts whilst sitting on the very tax raising powers to negate them, I think It's a bit rich for Tory voters to be out out that their kids can't get cheaper education north of the border whilst voting for a party that makes education south of the border more expensive.

I can imagine many a Scot being pissed off if education tourists were cramming Scottish universities to take advantage of Scottish state spending, then heading back south with their degree. Whether that's petty or not, the SNP position would seem to be at least in their electorate's interest. Of course it does nothing to stop brain drain of Scottish graduates to London/wherever.

These elected officials you speak of wernt elected by us; they were elected by the Scots.

The Higher Education Bill was backed by 316 votes to 311 at Westminster. Some 46 Scottish Labour MPs voted with the government, even though the plans will not apply north of the border. Five voted against and three abstained.

But education is devolved isnt it

As mentioned, I am aware of the effects of Labour's vote, having paid (I wish. still paying!) for my education south of the border. If I remember correctly, back then as Conservative leader, IDS was insisting he'd abolish tuition fees, viewing them as a "tax on learning".

But the elected officials I speak of were elected by the rUK. The Higher Education Bill was in 2004, that was three elections ago! Since then the Conservatives increased tuition fees to £9K in 2011, and were rewarded with an outright majority in the next election. In 2015 they have pledged to abolish Maintainence grants which currently help half a million students from poorer backgrounds.

The Lib-Dems appear to have been punished for their u-turn on tuition fees, but if their supporters defected to Labour (who proposed to cut them to ~£6K in their manifesto), England still voted for an outright Conservative majority. Tuition fees seem to be the will of those the rUK sends to Westminster.

So the assertion is that tuition fees for rUK students was inevitable so Scottish meddling in devolved matters can be forgiven?

Do you not think that had Labor lost the vote in the commons this may have been kicked into the long grass for some time?

[Ridgemont]

Ridgemont said:

In otherwords this is to ensure that the Scottish universities are largely the preserve of Scottish students. It's not an anti English thing in this context. It's a pro Scottish reservation

Now you could argue that that is a ludicrous ethnic stance in the light of both the ambitions of the single market, and in fact principles behind University education, but that's the SNP for you.

The more I think about this the more I wonder if the SNP regrets their stance. It's all very well Salmond talking about rather a rock melting in the sun, a posture he has to adhere to courtesy of the cleggopalypse, but it means that ScoGov is guaranteeing £5100 of tuition fees, which is relatively declining v rUK fees, with a greater and greater reliance on non Scottish/EU numbers to infill the deficit. It makes perfect sense for Scottish unis to hoover up low grade rUK students which will essentially undermine the reservation effect anyway.

[Garvin]

Edinburger said:

I'm sure it could perhaps be labelled 'discriminative' in that it's to ensure a fair proportion of Scottish pupils successfully obtain a right proportion. But can't you see why it's right to charge English students?

Quite frankly, no.
You made a case based on two main points:

Firstly, that it would cost Scotland more - that load of ill thought out analysis, some may say just plain rubbish, has been blown 'clean out of the water'.

Secondly, to protect places for Scottish students, presumably on the basis that they can't compete intellectually with their English counterparts. That is just discrimination, pure and simple. What if England decided to tax Scottish industry products (or whatever else) to protect English companies and English jobs?

I think it is clear why the SNP behave in this way and it is not 'right' by any stretch of the imagination.