Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

[Nick Grant]

Edinburger said:

I do agree that some SNP representatives (MPs, MSPs, councillors, etc.) are banging on about independence but many others seem to accept the outcome of the referendum and are moving on and focusing on what's important today.

It's all a massive irony because if they removed the uncertainty of neverendum Scotland would be stronger and therefore in 20 years they might be in a better position to start the campaign again.

[///ajd]

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

there are so many examples here of how the snp is ruining scotland

the car loan scheme, if additional to the uk grant, is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway. How dare they utter a friggin word about foodbanks? The UK grant already provides some (effectively) VAT relief, why is the SNP setting aside additional hard cash to loan out? its gesture nonsense, but the real hypocrisy is that it is NOT going to the most needy. And the reason for that is covered here and truely shameful.

it is interesting how you cannot see it. it feels increasingly like showing actual real fossils to a creationist to discuss why the earth is older than 6000 years. but it does not matter what evidence is provided, they will always believe the earth is only 6000 years old (or that some vow has been broken/its westminsters fault).

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 31st August 08:46

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

Please tell me about my naive view of domestic finances.

[Edinburger]

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

there are so many examples here of how the snp is ruining scotland

the car loan scheme, if additional to the uk grant, is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway. How dare they utter a friggin word about foodbanks? The UK grant already provides some (effectively) VAT relief, why is the SNP setting aside additional hard cash to loan out? its gesture nonsense, but the real hypocrisy is that it is NOT going to the most needy. And the reason for that is covered here and truely shameful.

it is interesting how you cannot see it. it feels increasingly like showing actual real fossils to a creationist to discuss why the earth is older than 6000 years. but it does not matter what evidence is provided, they will always believe the earth is only 6000 years old (or that some vow has been broken/its westminsters fault).

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 31st August 08:46

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

Please tell me about my naive view of domestic finances.

Your comment "is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway" seems rather naive to me.

[Edinburger]

Nick Grant said:

Edinburger said:

I do agree that some SNP representatives (MPs, MSPs, councillors, etc.) are banging on about independence but many others seem to accept the outcome of the referendum and are moving on and focusing on what's important today.

It's all a massive irony because if they removed the uncertainty of neverendum Scotland would be stronger and therefore in 20 years they might be in a better position to start the campaign again.

Yes, perhaps. Most people have moved on I hope and most politicians will soon too.

[Welshbeef]

Edinburger said:

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

How are you paying for it what's to stop people simply ordering cars in Scotland and live in rUK?

A geographically sparse region of the UK needs cars or transport with greater than 70mile range so is everyone getting Teslas?

[Edinburger]

Welshbeef said:

Edinburger said:

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

How are you paying for it what's to stop people simply ordering cars in Scotland and live in rUK?

A geographically sparse region of the UK needs cars or transport with greater than 70mile range so is everyone getting Teslas?

Not all of Scotland is geographically sparse. And I'd imagine address checks will sort the first point.

[Troubleatmill]

Edinburger said:

technodup said:

Edinburger said:

Gaelic is a recognised minority language spoken by around 87,000 people according to the 2011 consensus.

Precisely. Which doesn't explain why in a country of 5000000 it is given equal billing on every road sign north of Glasgow, every train station in the country and on vanity exercises such as police helicopters.

And I'd wager at least half of that 87k don't speak it regularly, more that they know how to if they had to. As your map shows, outside of the western isles it's dead.

And for what it's worth I don't agree with having other languages on literature or signage either. Learn English, get someone to help or leave. Don't expect us to pay for people's inadequacies.

You'll be equally outraged at the following:

Sign in English and Punjabi at Southall Train Station in London



Sign in Chinatown, Liverpool



Street sign in Bengali and English in the famous Brick Lane, London E1

Ed..

I think you have missed the point.

You have posted up a few signs - in small localised areas where a number of the population may ( or may not ) be able to read English. ( That is another discussion for another time )
As a clue, there aren't too many signs in Hampshire, Berkshire, Surrey etc etc etc with dual languages on it.

The question related to "Which doesn't explain why in a country of 5000000 it is given equal billing on every road sign north of Glasgow, every train station in the country and on vanity exercises such as police helicopters."

Do you see the difference?

Also, as stated earlier - everyone in Scotland that can read/speak Gaelic also reads/speaks English.

[///ajd]

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

there are so many examples here of how the snp is ruining scotland

the car loan scheme, if additional to the uk grant, is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway. How dare they utter a friggin word about foodbanks? The UK grant already provides some (effectively) VAT relief, why is the SNP setting aside additional hard cash to loan out? its gesture nonsense, but the real hypocrisy is that it is NOT going to the most needy. And the reason for that is covered here and truely shameful.

it is interesting how you cannot see it. it feels increasingly like showing actual real fossils to a creationist to discuss why the earth is older than 6000 years. but it does not matter what evidence is provided, they will always believe the earth is only 6000 years old (or that some vow has been broken/its westminsters fault).

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 31st August 08:46

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

Please tell me about my naive view of domestic finances.

Your comment "is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway" seems rather naive to me.

What is naive about that? It is a fact that :

a) electric cars are typically £30k+ - you yourself were considering a tesla on this scheme which is £50k+
b) people buying these cars are either i) reasonably well off or ii) borrowing beyond their means. For i) do they really need additional help beyond the £5k grant from the UK to buy electric? My assumption is that anyone buying a car at £50k outright (or with an easily paid off loan) has a significant household income. For ii) do they really need to be encouraged to get into further debt?
c) how can the SNP do this - which only really helps those that are relatively wealthy - and in the same breath complain about foodbanks being westminsters fault?

I suppose it is the latter that really grates. Give away money SNP to the rich all you like, but don't then continue to spew racist nonsense about austerity being "done to you by the english".

[Troubleatmill]

This is about 5 years old - but worth mentioning.


Gaelic channel BBC Alba has an annual budget of £17 Million.

Which means that 30% of BBC Scotland's annual budget was devoted to 1% of the total Scottish population.

Of the 8 senior managers of BBC Scotland. 4 are Gaelic speakers.



And Nicola Sturgeon wants more money, hmm... I wonder if there are some cost savings that could be made somewhere?

[r11co]

Nick Grant said:

It's all a massive irony because if they removed the uncertainty of neverendum Scotland would be stronger and therefore in 20 years they might be in a better position to start the campaign again.

This. Utterly and absolutely. I have mentioned several times the parallels between how the SNP are tackling seperatism and how the Quebecois attempted it. Same tactics with the same predictable results. Three decades and two lost referenda later and Montreal has gone from economic vibrancy to failure. Having said that, the Quebecois have strengthened their hold on government in the region in the intervening time (mainly because no-one else gives a crap anymore) so maybe being the big almighty fish in the wee pond is what the SNP are wanting all along.

[Edinburger]

Troubleatmill said:

Edinburger said:

technodup said:

Edinburger said:

Gaelic is a recognised minority language spoken by around 87,000 people according to the 2011 consensus.

Precisely. Which doesn't explain why in a country of 5000000 it is given equal billing on every road sign north of Glasgow, every train station in the country and on vanity exercises such as police helicopters.

And I'd wager at least half of that 87k don't speak it regularly, more that they know how to if they had to. As your map shows, outside of the western isles it's dead.

And for what it's worth I don't agree with having other languages on literature or signage either. Learn English, get someone to help or leave. Don't expect us to pay for people's inadequacies.

You'll be equally outraged at the following:

Sign in English and Punjabi at Southall Train Station in London



Sign in Chinatown, Liverpool



Street sign in Bengali and English in the famous Brick Lane, London E1

Ed..

I think you have missed the point.

You have posted up a few signs - in small localised areas where a number of the population may ( or may not ) be able to read English. ( That is another discussion for another time )
As a clue, there aren't too many signs in Hampshire, Berkshire, Surrey etc etc etc with dual languages on it.

The question related to "Which doesn't explain why in a country of 5000000 it is given equal billing on every road sign north of Glasgow, every train station in the country and on vanity exercises such as police helicopters."

Do you see the difference?

Also, as stated earlier - everyone in Scotland that can read/speak Gaelic also reads/speaks English.

Yes of course I see the difference - I'm devil's advocate here.

The Scottish Social Attitudes Survey showed 45% of respondents thought the amount of money being spent on Gaelic (£24m) was about right, while 16% said it was too little. 33% of respondents thought £24m to promote Gaelic was too much. Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-is...

It seems to me, that no matter what happens in Scotland there's a bunch of posters on PH ready to criticise it. When people ignore things, don't post or don't respond to positive posts then I can only assume they are outraged that they can't think of a negative slant to it.

[Edinburger]

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

there are so many examples here of how the snp is ruining scotland

the car loan scheme, if additional to the uk grant, is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway. How dare they utter a friggin word about foodbanks? The UK grant already provides some (effectively) VAT relief, why is the SNP setting aside additional hard cash to loan out? its gesture nonsense, but the real hypocrisy is that it is NOT going to the most needy. And the reason for that is covered here and truely shameful.

it is interesting how you cannot see it. it feels increasingly like showing actual real fossils to a creationist to discuss why the earth is older than 6000 years. but it does not matter what evidence is provided, they will always believe the earth is only 6000 years old (or that some vow has been broken/its westminsters fault).

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 31st August 08:46

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

Please tell me about my naive view of domestic finances.

Your comment "is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway" seems rather naive to me.

What is naive about that? It is a fact that :

a) electric cars are typically £30k+ - you yourself were considering a tesla on this scheme which is £50k+
b) people buying these cars are either i) reasonably well off or ii) borrowing beyond their means. For i) do they really need additional help beyond the £5k grant from the UK to buy electric? My assumption is that anyone buying a car at £50k outright (or with an easily paid off loan) has a significant household income. For ii) do they really need to be encouraged to get into further debt?
c) how can the SNP do this - which only really helps those that are relatively wealthy - and in the same breath complain about foodbanks being westminsters fault?

I suppose it is the latter that really grates. Give away money SNP to the rich all you like, but don't then continue to spew racist nonsense about austerity being "done to you by the english".

For heaven's sake, it's an interest-free loan. That's all. Interest makes a big difference to consumers but the cost of proving this to a government is negligible.

[Edinburger]

Troubleatmill said:

This is about 5 years old - but worth mentioning.


Gaelic channel BBC Alba has an annual budget of £17 Million.

Which means that 30% of BBC Scotland's annual budget was devoted to 1% of the total Scottish population.

Of the 8 senior managers of BBC Scotland. 4 are Gaelic speakers.



And Nicola Sturgeon wants more money, hmm... I wonder if there are some cost savings that could be made somewhere?

£31 billion of taxpayers’ money was wasted in the first 18 months of the Coalition government, according to the National Audit Office (source: http://www.the4thagenda.co.uk/taxpayers-money-wast...

Failed government IT projects waste £100 million of taxpayers' money in just one year (source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/te...

£5bn government waste: including £6m on useless earplugs (http://money.aol.co.uk/2015/02/16/hideous-5bn-government-waste-including-6m-on-useless-earplugs/)

It happens everywhere. C'est la vie.

[///ajd]

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

there are so many examples here of how the snp is ruining scotland

the car loan scheme, if additional to the uk grant, is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway. How dare they utter a friggin word about foodbanks? The UK grant already provides some (effectively) VAT relief, why is the SNP setting aside additional hard cash to loan out? its gesture nonsense, but the real hypocrisy is that it is NOT going to the most needy. And the reason for that is covered here and truely shameful.

it is interesting how you cannot see it. it feels increasingly like showing actual real fossils to a creationist to discuss why the earth is older than 6000 years. but it does not matter what evidence is provided, they will always believe the earth is only 6000 years old (or that some vow has been broken/its westminsters fault).

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 31st August 08:46

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

Please tell me about my naive view of domestic finances.

Your comment "is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway" seems rather naive to me.

What is naive about that? It is a fact that :

a) electric cars are typically £30k+ - you yourself were considering a tesla on this scheme which is £50k+
b) people buying these cars are either i) reasonably well off or ii) borrowing beyond their means. For i) do they really need additional help beyond the £5k grant from the UK to buy electric? My assumption is that anyone buying a car at £50k outright (or with an easily paid off loan) has a significant household income. For ii) do they really need to be encouraged to get into further debt?
c) how can the SNP do this - which only really helps those that are relatively wealthy - and in the same breath complain about foodbanks being westminsters fault?

I suppose it is the latter that really grates. Give away money SNP to the rich all you like, but don't then continue to spew racist nonsense about austerity being "done to you by the english".

For heaven's sake, it's an interest-free loan. That's all. Interest makes a big difference to consumers but the cost of proving this to a government is negligible.

No, we covered that. The full cost of the car/money is actually loaned/spent by the Scottish Government in full to pay of the cars - the buyers then repay that loan over a period to the government interest free. So you have both the capital outlay upfront (the opposite of PFI if you like, and covering the cost of the loan interest lost. All money that could be better diverted to help the poor; that would be 'so called' progressive.

Have you posted any positive stories? I can't recall one that hasn't been pulled to bits by inconvenient "logic" and "facts".

Still you persist in saying its anti-Scottish. Tut tut. The victim card is strong in this one.

I note you have not come back against the lies about EU legal advice - lies to try and sway an entire country to separate.

[Edinburger]

£3bn investment into a new North Sea oil and gas field which is expected to produce 5% of the UK's gas needs when it reaches peak production and 250m barrels of oil, supporting 6,000 jobs.

Good news.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-bus...

[Edinburger]

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

there are so many examples here of how the snp is ruining scotland

the car loan scheme, if additional to the uk grant, is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway. How dare they utter a friggin word about foodbanks? The UK grant already provides some (effectively) VAT relief, why is the SNP setting aside additional hard cash to loan out? its gesture nonsense, but the real hypocrisy is that it is NOT going to the most needy. And the reason for that is covered here and truely shameful.

it is interesting how you cannot see it. it feels increasingly like showing actual real fossils to a creationist to discuss why the earth is older than 6000 years. but it does not matter what evidence is provided, they will always believe the earth is only 6000 years old (or that some vow has been broken/its westminsters fault).

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 31st August 08:46

Why is it foolish? We have targets to reach on emmissions and we have slow uptake of electric cars so this low-cost initiative can perhaps crack both nuts to an extent. It's kick starting attitude changes. I suspect you have a rather naiive view of domestic finances too.

Please tell me about my naive view of domestic finances.

Your comment "is just pointlessly giving away money to people who can afford £30-50k cars anyway" seems rather naive to me.

What is naive about that? It is a fact that :

a) electric cars are typically £30k+ - you yourself were considering a tesla on this scheme which is £50k+
b) people buying these cars are either i) reasonably well off or ii) borrowing beyond their means. For i) do they really need additional help beyond the £5k grant from the UK to buy electric? My assumption is that anyone buying a car at £50k outright (or with an easily paid off loan) has a significant household income. For ii) do they really need to be encouraged to get into further debt?
c) how can the SNP do this - which only really helps those that are relatively wealthy - and in the same breath complain about foodbanks being westminsters fault?

I suppose it is the latter that really grates. Give away money SNP to the rich all you like, but don't then continue to spew racist nonsense about austerity being "done to you by the english".

For heaven's sake, it's an interest-free loan. That's all. Interest makes a big difference to consumers but the cost of proving this to a government is negligible.

No, we covered that. The full cost of the car/money is actually loaned/spent by the Scottish Government in full to pay of the cars - the buyers then repay that loan over a period to the government interest free. So you have both the capital outlay upfront (the opposite of PFI if you like, and covering the cost of the loan interest lost. All money that could be better diverted to help the poor; that would be 'so called' progressive.

Have you posted any positive stories? I can't recall one that hasn't been pulled to bits by inconvenient "logic" and "facts".

Still you persist in saying its anti-Scottish. Tut tut. The victim card is strong in this one.

I note you have not come back against the lies about EU legal advice - lies to try and sway an entire country to separate.

Err... yes, so in other words it's a car loan. A standard unsecured loan to buy a (electric) car. Except it's interest free to the consumer i.e. an incentive.

The outlay is buttons (at governmental level) and the loss of investment is minimal at the rates the government will pay. But it's a good news story for consumers.

[NoNeed]

Edinburger said:

Let's focus on "Scotland is still there but is being spoiled by an idiotic group" - how? How are the SNP spoiling Scotland?

Well for one they complain complain complain about foodbanks in Scotland yet waste a fortune on stuff Most people don't need or want.

Unless of course you think foodbanks add value to Scotland.

[Troubleatmill]

Edinburger said:

....It seems to me, that no matter what happens in Scotland there's a bunch of posters on PH ready to criticise it. When people ignore things, don't post or don't respond to positive posts then I can only assume they are outraged that they can't think of a negative slant to it.

As the "once in a generation referendum.... or once in a lifetime..." seems to have the life span of hamsters - and the SNP is talking up having another run at it in the next few years, then it is clearly obvious that decisions the SNP make will come under scrutiny.

It comes down to "Are they competent to govern."
And their track record isn't great in many eyes.

Take education as an example... (This has been touched on before).
Education of children should be politically neutral.

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandssongs...


The Freedom Come All Ye
This magnificent song was written by Hamish Henderson in 1960 for the peace marchers at the Holy Loch near Glasgow.
The tune is the World War I pipe march, ‘The Bloody Fields of Flanders’.


Both Sides of the Tweed
These verses are an attack upon the Treaty of Union of 1707, which abolished the independent Scottish and English Parliaments and set up the United Kingdom. The Tweed is the river that forms part of the Scottish-English border and it is used here as a symbol of both the need for independence and the need for friendship and co-existence. Songwriter Dick Gaughan's version, available here, has been amended slightly to make the song relevant to contemporary political issues


Ding Dong Dollar
A song to prove that protesting in favour of peace need not be depressing. This became the anthem of the Scottish Anti-Polaris movement of the 1960s and beyond.


If It Wisnae for the Union
A song in praise of trade unionism.



And, already covered in this thread Vol5 or was it 6, Scottish Tourism - Important milestones in Scotland's history. Again totally SNP bias.



The SNP are being scrutinised - because they are making a lot of bad policy decisions.

Edited by Troubleatmill on Monday 31st August 10:55

[Edinburger]

At the Edinburgh International Book Festival, Gordon Brown said he believes the next twelve months could determine the long-term fate of the union between rUK and Scotland.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-pol...

[Edinburger]

NoNeed said:

Edinburger said:

Let's focus on "Scotland is still there but is being spoiled by an idiotic group" - how? How are the SNP spoiling Scotland?

Well for one they complain complain complain about foodbanks in Scotland yet waste a fortune on stuff Most people don't need or want.

Unless of course you think foodbanks add value to Scotland.

You could say the same about virtually any government across the world.