Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

[Edinburger]

Strocky said:

simoid said:

Tram also fails to beat fat man on bike.

Flippant point as the Tram infrastructure fuds should have been turned upside down and shaken for change for the overspend, but how many travelers flying out of the country will have no bags or be able to arrive sweaty at their meeting?

"Okay everyone, let's get started"

Out of breath wheezy man at the back says:

"Hang on boss, I'm sweating like a rapist in court here after that cycle to work - let me have a quick shower!"

[Edinburger]

Gecko1978 said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

they don't think that they hope others will though. Channel Tunnel, largets enginering project in the world doing something that had never been done before.Tram to the airport, something thats been technologically feasable for what 150 years, except this one did not go to it intended destination....so like the channel tunnel finishing a mile or so off the coast.....

yeah exactly the same and comparible

The tram does go to the airport.

[gofasterrosssco]

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

Welshbeef said:

£1 billion that's a huge amount to spend on transport for Scotland - would be good to know the total transport budget for Scotland

That's 5x the support the Govt gave the South West when there was horrendous flooding and ruining roads houses etc.

Given there is a bus service to the same destinations I'm assuming there was chronic under capacity originally?



Agree with another earlier why on earth didn't they spend £1billion for a railway line to the airport and link up all of Scotland so that they can get there instead it's bus or tram which don't stop at a railway station .... Lugging luggage for hols all over the city with kids in tow no thanks. Car it is - maybe they are pro after all.

I believe a main advantage of the tram was that it was "off road" mostly once it's away from the city centre so it's not taking up traffic space.

However, much of the tram route is still on road, and it even uses a guided bus way built only a few years ago, therefore putting more buses back on the road

If it was my project I'd've just built an expressway for buses on the tram route.

Re. The Scottish transport budget - there's been billions and billions invested in recent years:
Forth Bridge
Trams
M74 extension (most expensive motorway or close to it?)
Borders railway
New M80
Etc

I'll reply to the other posts shortly, but yours stuck out - can you tell me why you think each of those projects was "wasted" money?

You do still live in Scotland, yeah?

Don't he's saying those projects are wasted money, just highlighting we get our fair share of infrastructure spending - big transport infrastructure projects only make sense when there is a high demand for them, hence why parts of England may have a proportionally higher number given the greater population density in places.

Oh and don't forget our beloved AWPR (Aberdeen Bypass ) @ £750 million..

[Einion Yrth]

Edinburger said:

Gecko1978 said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

they don't think that they hope others will though. Channel Tunnel, largets enginering project in the world doing something that had never been done before.Tram to the airport, something thats been technologically feasable for what 150 years, except this one did not go to it intended destination....so like the channel tunnel finishing a mile or so off the coast.....

yeah exactly the same and comparible

The tram does go to the airport.

But it doesn't go to Leith, which IIRC was the other intended terminus.

[gofasterrosssco]

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Strocky said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?

Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.

But remember there's a lot more land in Scotland so that's many more miles of roads to build and maintain.

Now where's my suit of armour gone?!

Exactly, but surely funding should be split per capita basis? In which case, if the above numbers are accurate, we'd have far less to spend on roads / transport..

That's kind of the point on the Barnett Formula is it not - to provide a roughly equivalent standard of services across (be that roads, hospitals, general public services) across areas that wouldn't naturally generate sufficient funds on their own. Hence why the greater cost efficiency of many users using fewer roads down south, is of benefit to the mush fewer users of many miles of empty road up here.. Hence why we have the best driving roads

[Edinburger]

Greedydog said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.

The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.

[Edinburger]

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

Gecko1978 said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

they don't think that they hope others will though. Channel Tunnel, largets enginering project in the world doing something that had never been done before.Tram to the airport, something thats been technologically feasable for what 150 years, except this one did not go to it intended destination....so like the channel tunnel finishing a mile or so off the coast.....

yeah exactly the same and comparible

The tram does go to the airport.

But it doesn't go to Leith, which IIRC was the other intended terminus.

True. But Gecko was referring to the airport.

[Edinburger]

gofasterrosssco said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Strocky said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?

Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.

But remember there's a lot more land in Scotland so that's many more miles of roads to build and maintain.

Now where's my suit of armour gone?!

Exactly, but surely funding should be split per capita basis? In which case, if the above numbers are accurate, we'd have far less to spend on roads / transport..

That's kind of the point on the Barnett Formula is it not - to provide a roughly equivalent standard of services across (be that roads, hospitals, general public services) across areas that wouldn't naturally generate sufficient funds on their own. Hence why the greater cost efficiency of many users using fewer roads down south, is of benefit to the mush fewer users of many miles of empty road up here.. Hence why we have the best driving roads

Nice try

[Gecko1978]

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

Gecko1978 said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

they don't think that they hope others will though. Channel Tunnel, largets enginering project in the world doing something that had never been done before.Tram to the airport, something thats been technologically feasable for what 150 years, except this one did not go to it intended destination....so like the channel tunnel finishing a mile or so off the coast.....

yeah exactly the same and comparible

The tram does go to the airport.

But it doesn't go to Leith, which IIRC was the other intended terminus.

Yep it goes to the airport or starts there but never reached leith so its a bit like stopping short of calis as per my example which I am sure you gathered but hoped others would not. The SNP is strong with you lol

Oh an look its not a great sucess but I conceed few goverment projects are of that nature. Still the SNP have to show the people the can make good choices with there money with FFA round the corner. SO as I asked eariler what will they do with income tax now they have powers. My guess F all

[Greedydog]

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.

The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.

I know it was a Labour project, the last sentence was aimed at your 'Scottish project' quip.

As for "No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward." Really? I mean really? You can't just forget about such a farce or lessons will never be learned. No amount of "Oooo look how shiny and nice the trams are, lets be positive about it!" will excuse or erase the monumental disgrace the whole project was.

[technodup]

Edinburger said:

It's a fresh and cosmopolitian approach to a 21st century challenge.

Vistors like them, commuters like them, shoppers like them. They're clean, inexpensive and convenient.

No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward.

They're a 19th century solution to a 21st century challenge. Oooh they're clean. Big deal. They're only convenient if you happen to be going somewhere along its very limited (and truncated) route.

And just because the money is spent doesn't mean its forgotten. It is and was an expensive farce from the start.

[Edinburger]

technodup said:

Edinburger said:

It's a fresh and cosmopolitian approach to a 21st century challenge.

Vistors like them, commuters like them, shoppers like them. They're clean, inexpensive and convenient.

No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward.

They're a 19th century solution to a 21st century challenge. Oooh they're clean. Big deal. They're only convenient if you happen to be going somewhere along its very limited (and truncated) route.

And just because the money is spent doesn't mean its forgotten. It is and was an expensive farce from the start.

Have you been on the Edinburgh trams?

Did you submit any written objection to the project at outset?

[Edinburger]

Greedydog said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.

The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.

I know it was a Labour project, the last sentence was aimed at your 'Scottish project' quip.

As for "No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward." Really? I mean really? You can't just forget about such a farce or lessons will never be learned. No amount of "Oooo look how shiny and nice the trams are, lets be positive about it!" will excuse or erase the monumental disgrace the whole project was.

I wonder if Australians sneer in disgust at the Sydney Opera House and boycot it. They muct be so embarrased that it's a national symbol, admired the world over. Because that was way over budget. As were lots of major developments.

It happens. Move on.

[Edinburger]

Gecko1978 said:

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

Gecko1978 said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

they don't think that they hope others will though. Channel Tunnel, largets enginering project in the world doing something that had never been done before.Tram to the airport, something thats been technologically feasable for what 150 years, except this one did not go to it intended destination....so like the channel tunnel finishing a mile or so off the coast.....

yeah exactly the same and comparible

The tram does go to the airport.

But it doesn't go to Leith, which IIRC was the other intended terminus.

Yep it goes to the airport or starts there but never reached leith so its a bit like stopping short of calis as per my example which I am sure you gathered but hoped others would not. The SNP is strong with you lol

Oh an look its not a great sucess but I conceed few goverment projects are of that nature. Still the SNP have to show the people the can make good choices with there money with FFA round the corner. SO as I asked eariler what will they do with income tax now they have powers. My guess F all

Stopping short of Calais is a stupid comparison.

Regardless of your point of view, it's hard to argue that the SNP didn't make a good job of the mess they inherited re. the trams.

Edited typo

[Einion Yrth]

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.

The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.

I know it was a Labour project, the last sentence was aimed at your 'Scottish project' quip.

As for "No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward." Really? I mean really? You can't just forget about such a farce or lessons will never be learned. No amount of "Oooo look how shiny and nice the trams are, lets be positive about it!" will excuse or erase the monumental disgrace the whole project was.

I wonder if Australians sneer in disgust at the Sydney Opera House and boycot it. They muct be so embarrased that it's a national symbol, admired the world over. Because that was way over budget. As were lots of major developments.

It happens. Move on.

Not content with trying to equate a tram with the channel tunnel, you're now trying to equate it with Sydney opera house? My flabber is truly gasted.

[Edinburger]

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.

The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.

I know it was a Labour project, the last sentence was aimed at your 'Scottish project' quip.

As for "No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward." Really? I mean really? You can't just forget about such a farce or lessons will never be learned. No amount of "Oooo look how shiny and nice the trams are, lets be positive about it!" will excuse or erase the monumental disgrace the whole project was.

I wonder if Australians sneer in disgust at the Sydney Opera House and boycot it. They muct be so embarrased that it's a national symbol, admired the world over. Because that was way over budget. As were lots of major developments.

It happens. Move on.

Not content with trying to equate a tram with the channel tunnel, you're now trying to equate it with Sydney opera house? My flabber is truly gasted.

You're the one harping on about cost overrun. I'm pointing out at lots of civil engineering projects overrun. The Sydney Opera House is just one example. You all got upset when I used the Channel Tunnel example!

[Einion Yrth]

Edinburger said:

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.

The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.

I know it was a Labour project, the last sentence was aimed at your 'Scottish project' quip.

As for "No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward." Really? I mean really? You can't just forget about such a farce or lessons will never be learned. No amount of "Oooo look how shiny and nice the trams are, lets be positive about it!" will excuse or erase the monumental disgrace the whole project was.

I wonder if Australians sneer in disgust at the Sydney Opera House and boycot it. They muct be so embarrased that it's a national symbol, admired the world over. Because that was way over budget. As were lots of major developments.

It happens. Move on.

Not content with trying to equate a tram with the channel tunnel, you're now trying to equate it with Sydney opera house? My flabber is truly gasted.

You're the one harping on about cost overrun. I'm pointing out at lots of civil engineering projects overrun. The Sydney Opera House is just one example. You all got upset when I used the Channel Tunnel example!

I never mentioned cost overrun, I was merely noting that your comparisons were becoming increasingly ludicrous.

[Edinburger]

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

Edinburger said:

Greedydog said:

James P said:

Edinburger said:

And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?

I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?

I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.

The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.

I know it was a Labour project, the last sentence was aimed at your 'Scottish project' quip.

As for "No point harping on about the cost - that's money spent. Move on. Look forward." Really? I mean really? You can't just forget about such a farce or lessons will never be learned. No amount of "Oooo look how shiny and nice the trams are, lets be positive about it!" will excuse or erase the monumental disgrace the whole project was.

I wonder if Australians sneer in disgust at the Sydney Opera House and boycot it. They muct be so embarrased that it's a national symbol, admired the world over. Because that was way over budget. As were lots of major developments.

It happens. Move on.

Not content with trying to equate a tram with the channel tunnel, you're now trying to equate it with Sydney opera house? My flabber is truly gasted.

You're the one harping on about cost overrun. I'm pointing out at lots of civil engineering projects overrun. The Sydney Opera House is just one example. You all got upset when I used the Channel Tunnel example!

I never mentioned cost overrun, I was merely noting that your comparisons were becoming increasingly ludicrous.

Why?

Edinburgh Trams overran on cost.
The Channel Tunnel overran on cost.
The Sydney Opera House overran on cost (15 x budget IIRC)

What's so ludicrous?

[///ajd]

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Strocky said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?

Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.

But remember there's a lot more land in Scotland so that's many more miles of roads to build and maintain.

Now where's my suit of armour gone?!

I'm left wondering why you brought up the tram at all burger? What point were you trying to make?

Whilst I tend to agree with the principle behind the barnett formula - for the reasons you outline - i fear the Nationalists have created the environment for its demise.

Nationalists spend all their time accusing the English (£8.5k/person) and not spending enough on Scotland (£10k/person), when it is clearly not backed by facts.

They are tempting the tories to live up to their bad press. They get accused of it so often, they may start thinking we may as well do it.

A bout of FFA to allow Scotland to raise the taxes it needs to cover its bigger infrastructure costs would be an interesting experiment. The resulting chaos may end with a Darian II type bail out and the end of Nationalist bigotry "for a generation".

Very tough luck for all the decent Scots caught up in it.

[Edinburger]

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Strocky said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?

Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.

But remember there's a lot more land in Scotland so that's many more miles of roads to build and maintain.

Now where's my suit of armour gone?!

I'm left wondering why you brought up the tram at all burger? What point were you trying to make?

Whilst I tend to agree with the principle behind the barnett formula - for the reasons you outline - i fear the Nationalists have created the environment for its demise.

Nationalists spend all their time accusing the English (£8.5k/person) and not spending enough on Scotland (£10k/person), when it is clearly not backed by facts.

They are tempting the tories to live up to their bad press. They get accused of it so often, they may start thinking we may as well do it.

A bout of FFA to allow Scotland to raise the taxes it needs to cover its bigger infrastructure costs would be an interesting experiment. The resulting chaos may end with a Darian II type bail out and the end of Nationalist bigotry "for a generation".

Very tough luck for all the decent Scots caught up in it.

I only mentioned the trams earlier because they'd released their figures which were contrary to what I'd heard on this thresd several times over the years. It's interesting to see how many people are still bitter about the whole thing.

The talk about spend concerns me too. It's fairly easy to justify why spend needs to be greater in Scotland but I have little faith in some of the economic points the SNP leadership are making.

We live in interesting times.