Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

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r11co

6,244 posts

229 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
The talk about spend concerns me too. It's fairly easy to justify why spend needs to be greater in Scotland but I have little faith in some of the economic points the SNP leadership are making.
Wow! A ch1nk in the armour 'burger yikes

Join the club, mate! thumbup

Edit: weird censorship!

technodup

7,576 posts

129 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
Have you been on the Edinburgh trams?
I can't see any situation which would require me taking a tram anywhere. I have a car.

If I'm going to Edinburgh sober I drive and scam a certain car park for free.

If I'm going for a drink I get the train or bus to Waverley/St Andrews Sq.

If I'm going to the airport... well obviously the tram is no use there either.

The Herald said:
3 Feb 2015
PLANS for a £92 million tram-train hybrid linking Glasgow airport to the city centre would "not deliver superior journey times" compared to the existing bus service, a report has revealed.
That didn't stop Edinburgh wasting a billion quid. fk it lets do it!

Strocky

2,630 posts

112 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
simoid said:
I wasn't making the point that travellers flying out of the country should use a bicycle. It was to illustrate that, although the trams have a dedicated route costing hundred of millions of pounds, they can be outperformed by the previously available means.
Mmmmm

simoid said:
Re. The rail links to Edinburgh airport:

There was a £650m plan to link the airport directly to trains to all of Scotland's major cities with a station in the terminal, but this was cancelled by the SNP in 2007.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Airport_R...



http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/work-begins...

Edinburgh airport could've been hugely more accessible to public transport from across Scotland. I've lived around 10 miles from the airport by car but I couldn't get there using public transport in less than an hour and a half. It's actually slightly quicker to cycle!

Edinburger

10,403 posts

167 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
Have you been on the Edinburgh trams?
I can't see any situation which would require me taking a tram anywhere. I have a car.

If I'm going to Edinburgh sober I drive and scam a certain car park for free.

If I'm going for a drink I get the train or bus to Waverley/St Andrews Sq.

If I'm going to the airport... well obviously the tram is no use there either.

The Herald said:
3 Feb 2015
PLANS for a £92 million tram-train hybrid linking Glasgow airport to the city centre would "not deliver superior journey times" compared to the existing bus service, a report has revealed.
That didn't stop Edinburgh wasting a billion quid. fk it lets do it!
Why is the tram "obviously no use" at the airport? That depends on where you live - it all depends on your lifestyle!

Strocky

2,630 posts

112 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
Have you been on the Edinburgh trams?
I can't see any situation which would require me taking a tram anywhere. I have a car.

If I'm going to Edinburgh sober I drive and scam a certain car park for free.

If I'm going for a drink I get the train or bus to Waverley/St Andrews Sq.

If I'm going to the airport... well obviously the tram is no use there either.

The Herald said:
3 Feb 2015
PLANS for a £92 million tram-train hybrid linking Glasgow airport to the city centre would "not deliver superior journey times" compared to the existing bus service, a report has revealed.
That didn't stop Edinburgh wasting a billion quid. fk it lets do it!
Technodup, Scotland's Everyman

technodup

7,576 posts

129 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
Why is the tram "obviously no use" at the airport? That depends on where you live - it all depends on your lifestyle!
Because I live in Glasgow?

Lifestyle? Edinburgh has a wide bus network, by all accounts inexpensive and well run compared to others. What has lifestyle got to do with choosing a tram which covers basically the same route as buses have always done?

matchmaker

8,463 posts

199 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
Greedydog said:
James P said:
Edinburger said:
And... lots of huge engineering projects go over budget, over deadlines, etc. All over the world. Channel Tunnel was just one example. C'est la vie. Let's not be getting a semi just because you can have a dig at a Scottish project, eh?
I didn't have a dig at anything. As has been eloquently pointed out, the projects are not remotely comparable. Why do you think one justifies the other?
I'm having a dig, not because it was a Scottish project (I'm Scottish BTW) but because it was a disgrace. I would be saying the same if I was living in any other city in the UK and saw local monies being poured away in a similar manner. Time to lose the chip.
The Edinburgh tram project wasn't the finest example of project management - no one disagrees with that. Don't forget it was a Labour project which the SNP were forced to go ahead with.
Transport In Edinburgh & project management rolleyesrolleyesrolleyes

They also "project managed" the Stirling - Alloa - Kincardine railway. Its costs rocketed from £37m to £85m and completion was two-and-a-half years late. It is now undergoing £17m of repairs.

Strocky

2,630 posts

112 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
Why is the tram "obviously no use" at the airport? That depends on where you live - it all depends on your lifestyle!
Because I live in Glasgow?

Lifestyle? Edinburgh has a wide bus network, by all accounts inexpensive and well run compared to others. What has lifestyle got to do with choosing a tram which covers basically the same route as buses have always done?
Why don't you berate the 5m passengers that have used the tram service in the past year for not using the bus system

nikaiyo2

4,672 posts

194 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
Why?

Edinburgh Trams overran on cost.
The Channel Tunnel overran on cost.
The Sydney Opera House overran on cost (15 x budget IIRC)

What's so ludicrous?
Are you seriously trying to compare the Sydney Opera house to the Trams in Edinburgh? Have you been drinking? You understand why the Sydney Opera House overran so much? Can you explain where the similarity is, as I can't think of ANY, other than they were both funded publicly.

Strocky

2,630 posts

112 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
///ajd said:
Strocky said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?
Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.
That's not a clue, it's using one specific region in a selective manner to try and prove a disingenuous point

In the interests of balance, see below



Edited by Strocky on Friday 29th May 18:35

///ajd

8,964 posts

205 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Strocky said:
///ajd said:
Strocky said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?
Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.
That's not a clue, it's using one specific region in a selective manner to try and prove a disingenuous point

In the interests of balance, see below



Edited by Strocky on Friday 29th May 18:35
Scaling my post with your graph puts Scotland below London and ahead of every other region of the UK.

Are you saying you have a problem with your geographical share being HIGHER than anywhere outside of London (which has special needs, but certainly delivers GDP wise).

"You wonder how much was spent regionally..." implies you think Scotland is hard done by - is that what you are saying/implying?



Edinburger

10,403 posts

167 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
Why is the tram "obviously no use" at the airport? That depends on where you live - it all depends on your lifestyle!
Because I live in Glasgow?

Lifestyle? Edinburgh has a wide bus network, by all accounts inexpensive and well run compared to others. What has lifestyle got to do with choosing a tram which covers basically the same route as buses have always done?
If you live in Glasgow then why are you even going on about this?!

My point was this: if you live in Edinburgh you have a choice to use the tram as opposed to a bus/taxi/bike/car/whatever on many journeys. I have that choice. I live fairly centrally in an area called Bruntsfield and I'm a 10-15 minute walk to Haymarket which is the nearest tram stop.

I might choose to get the tram into town from the airport to socialise before heading home. I might choose to take the tram to a meeting at South Gyle. If I worked at RBS I might choose to take the tram to work. It's all about choice. Empowering travellers with choice. I can see thge advantages of the tram over a bus on may routes so I have that choice. My brother lives outside Edinburgh and he doesn't have that choice.

You need to get over the fact the project overran and overspent and the end result is a shorter route than was originally proposed. C'est la vie. That's public bodies for you.

But what Edinburgh has is an alternative. An impressive one which 5m people have used in the last year.

Bear in mind that Glasgow has the subway. As a Weegie, were you so opposed to that?

Edinburger

10,403 posts

167 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
///ajd said:
Strocky said:
///ajd said:
Strocky said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?
Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.
That's not a clue, it's using one specific region in a selective manner to try and prove a disingenuous point

In the interests of balance, see below



Edited by Strocky on Friday 29th May 18:35
Scaling my post with your graph puts Scotland below London and ahead of every other region of the UK.

Are you saying you have a problem with your geographical share being HIGHER than anywhere outside of London (which has special needs, but certainly delivers GDP wise).

"You wonder how much was spent regionally..." implies you think Scotland is hard done by - is that what you are saying/implying?
We agreed earlier on the premise, but play devil's advocate for a second: why should Scotland have a lower share than any other UK region?

Edinburger

10,403 posts

167 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
nikaiyo2 said:
Edinburger said:
Why?

Edinburgh Trams overran on cost.
The Channel Tunnel overran on cost.
The Sydney Opera House overran on cost (15 x budget IIRC)

What's so ludicrous?
Are you seriously trying to compare the Sydney Opera house to the Trams in Edinburgh? Have you been drinking? You understand why the Sydney Opera House overran so much? Can you explain where the similarity is, as I can't think of ANY, other than they were both funded publicly.
I picked the Sydney Opera House at random as an example of a publicly funded large scale engineering project which was considerably over budget.

Want another? Choose from the Three Gorges Dam (quadrupled to £37bn), the Mose anti-flooding (£6bn over budget), Montreal airport ($180m over budget), etc., etc.

///ajd

8,964 posts

205 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
///ajd said:
Strocky said:
///ajd said:
Strocky said:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Proposed projected infrastructure spend of £200Bn in the UK in total from the last coalition government

I wonder how much was actually spent in the end and what was the geographical share?
Here is a clue Strocky.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regeneration/...

"In the West Midlands, spending on transport is £202 per person – compared to £519 in Scotland."

Are you doing well enough out of the UK, or do you realy think you deserve more/better?

Careful what you wish for!

There is a real appetite to finally bin the barnett - and you can thank no one other than Alex and the SNP for making it happen.
That's not a clue, it's using one specific region in a selective manner to try and prove a disingenuous point

In the interests of balance, see below



Edited by Strocky on Friday 29th May 18:35
Scaling my post with your graph puts Scotland below London and ahead of every other region of the UK.

Are you saying you have a problem with your geographical share being HIGHER than anywhere outside of London (which has special needs, but certainly delivers GDP wise).

"You wonder how much was spent regionally..." implies you think Scotland is hard done by - is that what you are saying/implying?
We agreed earlier on the premise, but play devil's advocate for a second: why should Scotland have a lower share than any other UK region?
I don't think anyone is saying it should be lower. But the fact is it is already higher (bar London).

Strocky seems to think it should be even higher given his post above.

This is the typical Nationalist victim in his element. Just demanding more from "the baddies" irrespective of whether it makes any sense or not.

Somehow Scotland needs to expose its Nationalists as weapons grade morons before it is too late for us all in the UK to live happily together.






barryrs

4,376 posts

222 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
If you live in Glasgow then why are you even going on about this?!
As a tax payer isn't that his right.

Or is every man, woman and child in Edinburgh going to pick up the £2000 each tab?

technodup

7,576 posts

129 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
If you live in Glasgow then why are you even going on about this?!

Bear in mind that Glasgow has the subway. As a Weegie, were you so opposed to that?
Because I'm pretty sure I paid for some of it.

As for the Subway it opened in 1896 so a wee bit before I was at the argumentative stage.

That said it's significantly faster to cross the city by Subway than bus, unlike your billion pound trams.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Strocky said:
simoid said:
I wasn't making the point that travellers flying out of the country should use a bicycle. It was to illustrate that, although the trams have a dedicated route costing hundred of millions of pounds, they can be outperformed by the previously available means.
Mmmmm

simoid said:
Re. The rail links to Edinburgh airport:

There was a £650m plan to link the airport directly to trains to all of Scotland's major cities with a station in the terminal, but this was cancelled by the SNP in 2007.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Airport_R...



http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/work-begins...

Edinburgh airport could've been hugely more accessible to public transport from across Scotland. I've lived around 10 miles from the airport by car but I couldn't get there using public transport in less than an hour and a half. It's actually slightly quicker to cycle!
As I said - the bold is a general point to show how inefficient the public transport system is. 10 miles or so in an hour in a half, ie quicker to cycle.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
Edinburger said:
simoid said:
Edinburger said:
I'll reply to the other posts shortly, but yours stuck out - can you tell me why you think each of those projects was "wasted" money?

You do still live in Scotland, yeah?
Come again...? I didn't say anything about wasted money.

That's none of your concern, and in any case I try to be as objective as possible.
Whoops - my mistook. I sped-read your post and wrongly thought you were complaining about that list of projects too.

So you never use the tram?
Nae bother!

Have used a tram a few times but it generally doesn't serve me much use. I used the bus network in Edinburgh for a couple of years and didn't have a car it's so good.

As you say - building a tram infrastructure in Edinburgh wasn't easy. We can see that and we're no experts. The marginal gains for the marginal costs look ridiculous. What have we actually gained over the bus service?

Big Rod

6,198 posts

215 months

Friday 29th May 2015
quotequote all
I took a tram in Edinburgh once.

It was only a couple of weeks ago.

It was nice for the novelty of it but it didn't enhance my visit to Edinburgh at all.

So I live in Fife. If I want to go to Edinburgh I'll drive or get the train. I don't see where the investment in this benefits me in any way.

Should I be bitter that the investment doesn't reach my front door?


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