Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
andymadmak said:
roadtripboy said:
Anyways, those that voted B only did so because they were too stupid to understand the opportunity/ had been conned by the B side/ were afraid of the future/ were bizarrely unable to see that A was the correct answer/ accidentally put their X in the wrong box/ naively believed that "B winning the vote" would be an end of the matter/ were not true Scots.
You missed off the fact that some of the No voters were obviously not sufficiently intimidated/shouted down/physically attacked. AC43 said:
andymadmak said:
Anyways, those that voted B only did so because they were too stupid to understand the opportunity/ had been conned by the B side/ were afraid of the future/ were bizarrely unable to see that A was the correct answer/ accidentally put their X in the wrong box/ naively believed that "B winning the vote" would be an end of the matter/ were not true Scots.
You missed off the fact that some of the No voters were obviously not sufficiently intimidated/shouted down/physically attacked. Burger most probably would have said:
Oh come on.I have not seen any evidence that this intimidation happened. There were bad things on both sides. The SNP has been a good Government for Scotland. You are just attacking Scotland and that upsets me
Burger most probably would have said:
Oh come on.I have not seen any evidence that this intimidation happened.
Ironic, because despite all the other arguments I have put forward for the SNP being a negative force in Scotland, my overriding memory of the referendum campaign and reason for my dislike of the SNP's particular brand of tribal politics was being verbally abused by a complete stranger, ID-wearing 'Yes Scotland' canvasser in the full gaze of the public in my own home town because I was minding my own business and did not give him the response he was looking for.I suspect that I was dressed for work in a shirt and tie may have had something to do with his behaviour - an uncommon site for him probably and one he had formed connotations with in his own mind by which he chose to judge me.
The SNP deliberately or otherwise gave legitimacy to thugs and lowlife to intimidate people on the streets.
My experience, first hand, having never been treated like that before during any electoral run-up, and I find it most annoying when the isolationist supporters tell me it didn't happen.
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 29th September 17:33
Edinburger said:
Just look at all the business leaders and academics who were in favour of independence.
Here's a shining example of a business leader who was prominent in the 'Business for Scotland' SNP mouthpiece, who supported independence and was given a high-profile post in the SNP.SNP business spokesperson Michelle Thomson is now being investigated by the Law Society of Scotland and several banks for mortgage fraud after the solicitor who set up her business deals is struck off for illegal activities.
Notwithstanding her business amounted to drastically undervaluing properties being repossessed, leaving their previous owners with massive debts - very into social justice!
What was that I was saying earlier about defending the indefensible?
andymadmak said:
roadtripboy said:
How about a simple intelligence test to decide who gets to vote.
"A country holds an election or referendum. You, and a number of other people, vote for Option A. However, more people vote for Option B. Which side wins?"
Option A, obviously. It's not about who gets the most votes. Option A voters are on the side of civic nationalism and cannot be wrong. Anyways, those that voted B only did so because they were too stupid to understand the opportunity/ had been conned by the B side/ were afraid of the future/ were bizarrely unable to see that A was the correct answer/ accidentally put their X in the wrong box/ naively believed that "B winning the vote" would be an end of the matter/ were not true Scots / were the victims of an MI5 operation to pervert the will of the Scottish people. "A country holds an election or referendum. You, and a number of other people, vote for Option A. However, more people vote for Option B. Which side wins?"
S'obvious innit! A wins.
r11co said:
Here's a shining example of a business leader who was prominent in the 'Business for Scotland' SNP mouthpiece, who supported independence and was given a high-profile post in the SNP.
SNP business spokesperson Michelle Thomson is now being investigated by the Law Society of Scotland and several banks for mortgage fraud after the solicitor who set up her business deals is struck off for illegal activities.
Notwithstanding her business amounted to drastically undervaluing properties being repossessed, leaving their previous owners with massive debts - very into social justice!
What was that I was saying earlier about defending the indefensible?
Police now involved and she has resigned the SNP whip.SNP business spokesperson Michelle Thomson is now being investigated by the Law Society of Scotland and several banks for mortgage fraud after the solicitor who set up her business deals is struck off for illegal activities.
Notwithstanding her business amounted to drastically undervaluing properties being repossessed, leaving their previous owners with massive debts - very into social justice!
What was that I was saying earlier about defending the indefensible?
ETA - She is now no longer a member of the SNP.
Edited by tim0409 on Tuesday 29th September 19:10
tim0409 said:
ETA - She is now no longer a member of the SNP.
Rejoice!
(If only because all those Facebook trolls now need to ditch their wee '56' logos).
Cold comfort for all the people she scammed though.
ETA: Nearly an hour since the 'news' broke (still notably lacking from any of the mainstream traditional sources) and not a glimmer from fluff, strock or the 'burger. I wonder why.....?
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 29th September 20:38
Sturgeon: My vow is to make Scotland stronger at Westminster.
I know she's keen on vows. 55 is less strong than 56. How does she explain this one being broken?
For some light relief see the 'easy read manifesto' at the foot of the page. They certainly know their demographic.
http://www.snp.org/node/15170
I know she's keen on vows. 55 is less strong than 56. How does she explain this one being broken?
For some light relief see the 'easy read manifesto' at the foot of the page. They certainly know their demographic.
http://www.snp.org/node/15170
technodup said:
Sturgeon: My vow is to make Scotland stronger at Westminster.
I know she's keen on vows. 55 is less strong than 56. How does she explain this one being broken?
For some light relief see the 'easy read manifesto' at the foot of the page. They certainly know their demographic.
http://www.snp.org/node/15170
Lol at that manifesto. Apparently, the first draft includedI know she's keen on vows. 55 is less strong than 56. How does she explain this one being broken?
For some light relief see the 'easy read manifesto' at the foot of the page. They certainly know their demographic.
http://www.snp.org/node/15170
'Westminster is in London, this is a dark star and they are the baddies.'
///ajd said:
technodup said:
Sturgeon: My vow is to make Scotland stronger at Westminster.
I know she's keen on vows. 55 is less strong than 56. How does she explain this one being broken?
For some light relief see the 'easy read manifesto' at the foot of the page. They certainly know their demographic.
http://www.snp.org/node/15170
Lol at that manifesto. Apparently, the first draft includedI know she's keen on vows. 55 is less strong than 56. How does she explain this one being broken?
For some light relief see the 'easy read manifesto' at the foot of the page. They certainly know their demographic.
http://www.snp.org/node/15170
'Westminster is in London, this is a dark star and they are the baddies.'
They got that one exactly wrong.
andymadmak said:
The problem that many have with Nats (including you Edinburger) is just how slippery and dishonest it all is. Getting straight answers is like nailing jelly to the wall. The levels of obfuscation and deflection on display whenever anyone even gets close to a factual answer would stand SNP members in great stead should those activities ever become Olympic sports!
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
Great post.So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
Burger, you would do well to read this one carefully, and consider that important fact that it is all true.
"not an SNP fanboy?" you are the biggest SNP fanboy / apologist on here. fact.
PS interesting to see Sturgeon say the London/dark star stuff was all nonsense. I wonder what the angle is this time?
andymadmak said:
really good points.......
Great post, this is what is annoying me 'post referendum', the SNP/Yes people keep banging on about the vow, the will of the people, how independence is inevitable...... but every point raised by andymadmak is exactly why i voted no, and in the year after not one point has been answered to make me change my mind.This must be the new politics, more progressive, equal society being extolled by the SNP.
It seem some are more equal and progressive, than others.
SNP MP Michelle “17 houses” Thomson has withdrawn from the party whip after police launched an investigation into her scandal-hit property deals. The investigation comes after the Scottish Solicitors’ Discipline Tribunal struck off her solicitor for professional misconduct.
Thompson was involved in all 13 of the dodgy property transactions for which Christopher Hales was struck off, with the tribunal ruling that the MP had a “central” role in transactions that should have “set alarm bells ringing“.
http://order-order.com/2015/09/30/cops-called-as-t...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-polit...
It seem some are more equal and progressive, than others.
SNP MP Michelle “17 houses” Thomson has withdrawn from the party whip after police launched an investigation into her scandal-hit property deals. The investigation comes after the Scottish Solicitors’ Discipline Tribunal struck off her solicitor for professional misconduct.
Thompson was involved in all 13 of the dodgy property transactions for which Christopher Hales was struck off, with the tribunal ruling that the MP had a “central” role in transactions that should have “set alarm bells ringing“.
http://order-order.com/2015/09/30/cops-called-as-t...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-polit...
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 30th September 13:05
In the absence of the usual suspects for the defence I wandered over to Wings to see what they were saying about Michelle Thomson. I needn't have worried...
SNP mouthpiece said:
The ex-director of Business For Scotland has resigned the party whip and is now sitting, at least temporarily, as an independent while police conduct an investigation into some property purchases in which she was involved.
As yet no criminal activity by anyone has been alleged, and Police Scotland has said that it has no plans at the moment to even interview Ms Thomson, let alone arrest or charge her. As yet it’s a political non-story.
Move along, nothing to see here.As yet no criminal activity by anyone has been alleged, and Police Scotland has said that it has no plans at the moment to even interview Ms Thomson, let alone arrest or charge her. As yet it’s a political non-story.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
This must be the new politics, more progressive, equal society being extolled by the SNP.
It seem some are more equal and progressive, than others.
SNP MP Michelle “17 houses” Thomson has withdrawn from the party whip after police launched an investigation into her scandal-hit property deals. The investigation comes after the Scottish Solicitors’ Discipline Tribunal struck off her solicitor for professional misconduct.
Thompson was involved in all 13 of the dodgy property transactions for which Christopher Hales was struck off, with the tribunal ruling that the MP had a “central” role in transactions that should have “set alarm bells ringing“.
The tribunal against Hales was convened in 2014 and looked back to property deals in 2010, so the question now has to be where the failings* were in the SNP process that allowed someone who's business was already under investigation to be selected as a candidate for MP.It seem some are more equal and progressive, than others.
SNP MP Michelle “17 houses” Thomson has withdrawn from the party whip after police launched an investigation into her scandal-hit property deals. The investigation comes after the Scottish Solicitors’ Discipline Tribunal struck off her solicitor for professional misconduct.
Thompson was involved in all 13 of the dodgy property transactions for which Christopher Hales was struck off, with the tribunal ruling that the MP had a “central” role in transactions that should have “set alarm bells ringing“.
(*The answer of course is simple - the SNP believed their own hype that they are better than everyone else in every way and that due diligence was not required as anyone who supports independence must already be both superior and righteous).
Oh, and more breaking news - SNP are planning to rehouse sex-offenders in cities, for the stated reason of allowing them to blend in more easily, ergo more likely to avoid detection should they re-offend, while also having a bigger pool of victims to choose from.
Perhaps the morons (for there really is no other word to describe the level of incompetence now being displayed by them) could complete the circle by offering the paedos jobs on the 'named person' state guardian scheme as part of their rehabilitation?
Edited by r11co on Wednesday 30th September 13:41
technodup said:
In the absence of the usual suspects for the defence I wandered over to Wings to see what they were saying about Michelle Thomson. I needn't have worried...
lol hilarious. wangs over bath plumbs new depths of blinkered idiocy.SNP mouthpiece said:
The ex-director of Business For Scotland has resigned the party whip and is now sitting, at least temporarily, as an independent while police conduct an investigation into some property purchases in which she was involved.
As yet no criminal activity by anyone has been alleged, and Police Scotland has said that it has no plans at the moment to even interview Ms Thomson, let alone arrest or charge her. As yet it’s a political non-story.
Move along, nothing to see here.As yet no criminal activity by anyone has been alleged, and Police Scotland has said that it has no plans at the moment to even interview Ms Thomson, let alone arrest or charge her. As yet it’s a political non-story.
director of business for scotland is alledgedly a crook.
par. for. the. course. for a sham outfit
Still.... I don't think we have discussed this in detail enough.
SNP chief Nicola Sturgeon backtracks on her vow to give a home to Syrian refugees
Said she would be 'absolutely happy' to help refugees on September 6
But a spokesman said there were no plans for that to happen this week
First of 20,000 Syrian refugees due to come to Britain arrived Tuesday
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3250573/SN...
SNP chief Nicola Sturgeon backtracks on her vow to give a home to Syrian refugees
Said she would be 'absolutely happy' to help refugees on September 6
But a spokesman said there were no plans for that to happen this week
First of 20,000 Syrian refugees due to come to Britain arrived Tuesday
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3250573/SN...
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