Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
A rally in Dundee yesterday chaired by the bastion of truth that is Tommy Sheridan.
According to the headline,hundreds attended.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/hund...
According to the headline,hundreds attended.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/hund...
Courier said:
Hundreds at Yes Dundee rally hear Tommy Sheridan claim country 'was lied to'
He's not wrong. Lied to about the economic prospects of Scotland, lied to about Scotland's continuing membership of the EU, and lied to about the party leading the call for independence's social justice agenda.Fortunately, the majority saw through the lies.
In other news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-pol...
Not the man I'd want in charge of first contact situation..
General Price said:
A rally in Dundee yesterday chaired by the bastion of truth that is Tommy Sheridan.
According to the headline,hundreds attended.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/hund...
'convicted perjurer' According to the headline,hundreds attended.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/hund...
are all these shouty SNP/Yes types fundamentally dishonest?
The silence from the SNP apologists is deafening. I hope they are shamed into some introspection.
When I was questioned by Strocky about my politics months ago in this thread I responded that I was anti-SNP because I rejected their false, negative brand of politics, and I made the point in a previous incarnation of this thread that I believed the SNP had won 56 seats in Westminster under false pretences by smearing their opposition and stealing the mantle of the party of social justice.
The M&F Property scandal (and the embarrassing attempts by party leadership to deny knowledge of Michelle Thomsons's business practices when Nicola Sturgeon's husband was the person responsible for vetting Thomson), T-In the Park cronyism, NHS contracts to SNP donors, and their energy spokesperson's involvement in a company fined for breaking laws on cold-calling - these have all revealed the SNP's claiming of the moral high ground to be a total and utter sham.
Even the sainted Mhairi Black in the run-up to the GE claimed of her rival Douglas Alexander that he had never been seen in his constituency until the weeks before the election. How the f
k would she know as she spent most of the intervening time in Glasgow or turning up at pro-independence rallies all over Scotland - basically anywhere but Paisley while Mr. Alexander was known to be at every civic event in his constituency even before the campaign started, and there wasn't a fortnight went past that I did not see him in the local supermarket, always prepared to stop and talk to Joe Public.
What Mhairi Black said about her opponent was IMO more actionable than anything Alistair Carmichael said about Nicola Sturgeon in the measure of making false statements to discredit a rival.
Anyhoo - chickens coming home to roost now.
When I was questioned by Strocky about my politics months ago in this thread I responded that I was anti-SNP because I rejected their false, negative brand of politics, and I made the point in a previous incarnation of this thread that I believed the SNP had won 56 seats in Westminster under false pretences by smearing their opposition and stealing the mantle of the party of social justice.
The M&F Property scandal (and the embarrassing attempts by party leadership to deny knowledge of Michelle Thomsons's business practices when Nicola Sturgeon's husband was the person responsible for vetting Thomson), T-In the Park cronyism, NHS contracts to SNP donors, and their energy spokesperson's involvement in a company fined for breaking laws on cold-calling - these have all revealed the SNP's claiming of the moral high ground to be a total and utter sham.
Even the sainted Mhairi Black in the run-up to the GE claimed of her rival Douglas Alexander that he had never been seen in his constituency until the weeks before the election. How the f
k would she know as she spent most of the intervening time in Glasgow or turning up at pro-independence rallies all over Scotland - basically anywhere but Paisley while Mr. Alexander was known to be at every civic event in his constituency even before the campaign started, and there wasn't a fortnight went past that I did not see him in the local supermarket, always prepared to stop and talk to Joe Public.What Mhairi Black said about her opponent was IMO more actionable than anything Alistair Carmichael said about Nicola Sturgeon in the measure of making false statements to discredit a rival.
Anyhoo - chickens coming home to roost now.
Panic not! lest we were worried that Strocky et al had died in some tragic accident, one of them at least is still with us.....just not on this thread.
The fair Strocky can be found here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Because, of course, deliberately misinterpreting what ministers say is far more important that responding to the stuff that the SNP is getting up to....
The fair Strocky can be found here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Because, of course, deliberately misinterpreting what ministers say is far more important that responding to the stuff that the SNP is getting up to....
Good to see that the Borders Railway has been hailed a "soaraway success" and has seen 125K journeys in its first month whereas forecasters had predicted it would carry 650K passengers a year.
And what did the cynics say on PH?
And what did the cynics say on PH?
Edinburger said:
Good to see that the Borders Railway has been hailed a "soaraway success" and has seen 125K journeys in its first month whereas forecasters had predicted it would carry 650K passengers a year.
And what did the cynics say on PH?
Maybe they said to give it a year And what did the cynics say on PH?
Edinburger said:
Good to see that the Borders Railway has been hailed a "soaraway success" and has seen 125K journeys in its first month whereas forecasters had predicted it would carry 650K passengers a year.
And what did the cynics say on PH?
So you will have a date when all the public money will be repaid and no more subsidies collected by the operators?And what did the cynics say on PH?
Ahh Mr Edinburger you are back. A tad later than I predicted (see below) but nevertheless completely ignoring the points made and whizzing off on another tangent as predicted
andymadmak said:
So, as is usually the case in these situations, Edinburger has vanished.
Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
So hows about you answer some of the points below ?Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
andymadmak said:
The problem that many have with Nats (including you Edinburger) is just how slippery and dishonest it all is. Getting straight answers is like nailing jelly to the wall. The levels of obfuscation and deflection on display whenever anyone even gets close to a factual answer would stand SNP members in great stead should those activities ever become Olympic sports!
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
Edinburger said:
Good to see that the Borders Railway has been hailed a "soaraway success" and has seen 125K journeys in its first month whereas forecasters had predicted it would carry 650K passengers a year.
andymadmak said:
Edinburger has vanished. Anyone care to speculate when he will return? <snip> of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
As sure as the sun comes up.....!Two words 'burger - MICHELLE THOMSON.
Two more - RANK HYPOCRISY.
Two more that need to be scratched from the SNP vocabulary - SOCIAL JUSTICE.
PS. The railway is a gimmick with a lot of people trying it once because it is new - the figures will average out over time.
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 6th October 17:42
Edinburger said:
Good to see that the Borders Railway has been hailed a "soaraway success" and has seen 125K journeys in its first month whereas forecasters had predicted it would carry 650K passengers a year.
And what did the cynics say on PH?
Well that's a good result no question. And what did the cynics say on PH?
Let's see how this usage continues there may or may not be a novelty factor none the less if the payback only required 625k users a year then it's a cheap option.
How much did it cost to give 625k trips a year?
andymadmak said:
Ahh Mr Edinburger you are back. A tad later than I predicted (see below) but nevertheless completely ignoring the points made and whizzing off on another tangent as predicted
Impressive post, Andy. I travel with work every week and I've just not been on PH for some time, but it's nice to be missed!andymadmak said:
So, as is usually the case in these situations, Edinburger has vanished.
Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
So hows about you answer some of the points below ?Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
andymadmak said:
The problem that many have with Nats (including you Edinburger) is just how slippery and dishonest it all is. Getting straight answers is like nailing jelly to the wall. The levels of obfuscation and deflection on display whenever anyone even gets close to a factual answer would stand SNP members in great stead should those activities ever become Olympic sports!
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
I'll reply to your extensive points shortly.
Edinburger said:
Good to see that the Borders Railway has been hailed a "soaraway success" and has seen 125K journeys in its first month whereas forecasters had predicted it would carry 650K passengers a year.
And what did the cynics say on PH?
Classic YESNP - take the optimum data from a short sample period and present it as evidence that you've done something right..And what did the cynics say on PH?
Anyway, I hope it is a soar-away sucess..!
Edinburger said:
andymadmak said:
Ahh Mr Edinburger you are back. A tad later than I predicted (see below) but nevertheless completely ignoring the points made and whizzing off on another tangent as predicted
Impressive post, Andy. I travel with work every week and I've just not been on PH for some time, but it's nice to be missed!andymadmak said:
So, as is usually the case in these situations, Edinburger has vanished.
Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
So hows about you answer some of the points below ?Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
andymadmak said:
The problem that many have with Nats (including you Edinburger) is just how slippery and dishonest it all is. Getting straight answers is like nailing jelly to the wall. The levels of obfuscation and deflection on display whenever anyone even gets close to a factual answer would stand SNP members in great stead should those activities ever become Olympic sports!
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
I'll reply to your extensive points shortly.
ianrb said:
Edinburger said:
andymadmak said:
Ahh Mr Edinburger you are back. A tad later than I predicted (see below) but nevertheless completely ignoring the points made and whizzing off on another tangent as predicted
Impressive post, Andy. I travel with work every week and I've just not been on PH for some time, but it's nice to be missed!andymadmak said:
So, as is usually the case in these situations, Edinburger has vanished.
Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
So hows about you answer some of the points below ?Anyone care to speculate when he will return? My money is on some time over the weekend. Of course, when he does come back he will COMPLETELY ignore the points made to him by myself and others, and will more than likely post a link to a nonsense story which he will nevertheless describe as "interesting" .
andymadmak said:
The problem that many have with Nats (including you Edinburger) is just how slippery and dishonest it all is. Getting straight answers is like nailing jelly to the wall. The levels of obfuscation and deflection on display whenever anyone even gets close to a factual answer would stand SNP members in great stead should those activities ever become Olympic sports!
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
So some examples:
When questioned how Scotland would fund it's social largesse - 'Oil will never be below 100dollars per barrel".. But what if the price falls? (said the No camp) This was greeted by "Only the No camp could describe a major asset like North Sea Oil as a problem!" (despite that never having been the No camps position) - Do you see where the disconnect is there Burger? And now that it's 40 odd dollars the SNP answer morphs to "we were never reliant on oil anyway" (when plainly Scotland would be to a considerable degree) The obfuscation came with SNP members alluding to Westminster efforts to "cover up the existence of a secret giant oil field off the coast of Scotland" when in fact it had already been publicised!
How about Navy ship building? The Royal Navy, apart from in world war 2) has never ever built its main capital ships in foreign shipyards. The SNP response? "Oh yes they will, cos we say so. The Clyde is safe" No explanation as to why centuries of practice would be abandoned in favour of keeping Scotlands industry busy. No thought that perhaps yards in the rUK might lobby VERY strongly to get that work, and in doing so would certainly be pushing against an open door. Even when the rUK Government says no, the SNP just blindly asserted that RN building would continue. The predictable obfuscation came when the SNP pointed to the RFA oilers being built in Korea, completely ignoring the fact that these are not capital ships!
How about the currency? Surely you know by now that rUK is NOT going to, was never going to, will never agree to a currency Union? Yet the SNP blind assertion was that there would be a union. The obfuscation came with SNP claiming that the pound was theirs anyway, and that nobody could stop them using it. True enough on the last part, but it hardly dealt with the serious issue that underpinned the currency question - ability to borrow, lender of last resort etc.
How about the EU membership? Now, even you have to accept that Mr Salmond lied through his teeth when he claimed to have legal advice showing that Scotland would remain in the EU? The EU said no, those lawyers brave enough to speak said no, and the SNP still claimed yes. The obfuscation came when the SNP started making noises about it not being possible to strip Scottish people of their citizenship, and that the EU would not want to miss out on "oil rich, renewables rich, fish rich, whisky rich Scotland". This of course completely ignored the actual legal position but at least it played well with those people silly enough to believe it.
How about the banks moving the HQs? The No camp was proved right about this, but still the SNP obfuscated by first denying it and then claiming that moving the HQ was only a token thing and meant nothing. And now the obfuscation effort is in overdrive with Salmod releasing his infamous conspiracy video just recently! Has the man no shame?
How about that anti English violence thing? Evidence of bullying go English kids is dismissed as "just kids". Man gets stabbed outside a Scottish pub just for being English is dismissed as "an attack not related to him being English" despot his attackers making it VERY clear that it was precisely his nationality that motivated the attack. Cyber violence and bullying was also rife. Of course the obfuscation came from Mr Salmonds infamous squawking to the Police when a No campaigner shouted at him
How about the anti no levels of vitiol? Remember the disgraceful scenes when Jim Murphy tried to speak in public? The attack on Nigel Farage? The bullying and intimidation of Charles Kennedy? How about JK Rowling and any other public figure who dared to express a No view? How is that defensible? And how is it that those carrying out these attacks and this bullying have almost to a man and woman NOT been expelled from the SNP? I mean it's all very well muttering platitudes, but the SNP has simply not acted against these people committing these crimes? Why is that Burger?
Shall we talk about the Vow? You know, the one that has been delivered in full but which the SNP claimed was not, even before it had started its way through Parliament?
Even in your recent posts you refer to "all those business leaders and academics who supported independence". I bet you wrote that without even a trace of irony too. Academics I care not one jot for (they are the easiest people to buy off with the offer of a research grant) but your claim to "business leaders" made me laugh out loud. Are you referring to business for Scotland perchance? Or is there a secret squad of major business leaders waiting to espouse their support for Indy? I know from first hand experience that a number of high profile business leaders chose not to express an opinion during the referendum, but that was because they were no supporters, and they were told in no uncertain terms by SNP reps what would happen to their businesses post independence if they dared to express their opinion in the run up to the vote.
So please do list "all those business leaders" - I am fascinated to see who's on your list!
How about the "once in a lifetime pledge"? that has now turned into a Neverendum...
I could go on, and on, and on. There is simply not enough internet available to list all the examples of hypocrisy and double standards from the SNP and its odious supporters. And yet you still find ways to obfuscate, hide behind minor details, make ludicrous claims about NDAs when it all gets a bit close to you finally being nailed.
And all the while Scotland is being damaged. By people like you.
I'll reply to your extensive points shortly.
Edinburger said:
Good to see that the Borders Railway has been hailed a "soaraway success" and has seen 125K journeys in its first month whereas forecasters had predicted it would carry 650K passengers a year.
And what did the cynics say on PH?
Well that's a good result no question. And what did the cynics say on PH?
Let's see how this usage continues there may or may not be a novelty factor none the less if the payback only required 625k users a year then it's a cheap option.
How much did it cost to give 625k trips a year?
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