Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

[gadgetmac]

fluffnik said:

Hainey said:

I'm British, I just happened to have been born in Scotland.

I'm European, I just happened to have been born in Scotland.

One of No's promises/lies was that a No vote would keep us in the EU, that must have garnered a few votes - I know several No voters who value their EU citizenship far more than any Britishness.

I said exactly this on the 2nd Referendum thread. Sturgeon made it quite clear before the EU referendum that a leave vote against the wishes of the Scottish electorate would likely trigger another independence vote in Scotland. I knew this as did anyone who was paying attention. The English and the Welsh have ignored that and I think that Scotland should now exercise that right to reassess their position within or without the UK.

To those saying that Scotland is a "region" of the UK, it's not, it's a seperate country within a Union (which they joined over 300 years ago) much like the UK was/is within the EU. The North East of England is a "region".

Scotland the country voted Remain. It wasn't ambiguous. The electoral boundaries for the Scottish voters were all within Scotland they did not overlap with any English towns or villages. The English and Welsh voted to leave the Scottish want to stay. The situation is intolerable and sadly I'm certain from talking to my friends north of the border that they will leave the UK regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU. This vote just made Sturgeon even more popular up there. But you can't argue that YOU want to leave a union you don't like but then try to impose your own union on others who don't like it. I'm English and I have no problem with us, England, leaving the EU but we should do it alone and not drag an unwilling partner into an uncertain future when they don't want to come.

[Troubleatmill]

gadgetmac said:

fluffnik said:

Hainey said:

I'm British, I just happened to have been born in Scotland.

I'm European, I just happened to have been born in Scotland.

One of No's promises/lies was that a No vote would keep us in the EU, that must have garnered a few votes - I know several No voters who value their EU citizenship far more than any Britishness.

I said exactly this on the 2nd Referendum thread. Sturgeon made it quite clear before the EU referendum that a leave vote against the wishes of the Scottish electorate would likely trigger another independence vote in Scotland. I knew this as did anyone who was paying attention. The English and the Welsh have ignored that and I think that Scotland should now exercise that right to reassess their position within or without the UK.

To those saying that Scotland is a "region" of the UK, it's not, it's a seperate country within a Union (which they joined over 300 years ago) much like the UK was/is within the EU. The North East of England is a "region".

Scotland the country voted Remain. It wasn't ambiguous. The electoral boundaries for the Scottish voters were all within Scotland they did not overlap with any English towns or villages. The English and Welsh voted to leave the Scottish want to stay. The situation is intolerable and sadly I'm certain from talking to my friends north of the border that they will leave the UK regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU. This vote just made Sturgeon even more popular up there. But you can't argue that YOU want to leave a union you don't like but then try to impose your own union on others who don't like it. I'm English and I have no problem with us, England, leaving the EU but we should do it alone and not drag an unwilling partner into an uncertain future when they don't want to come.

Oh the irony... You did read a page or so back those nice letters from the EU explaining that if Scotland won independence - it would be immediately out of the EU. And it would have to apply for membership - and pass all of the tests ( which it is unable to do ).

Please tell me you read it - and you understood it.

[anonymous-user]

Sturgeon now saying the 2014 pre-referendum UK 'doesn't exist anymore'

So if we had voted out in 2014 that would be the same story, right? And we would get another referendum to vote back into the UK.

Does she even listen to herself when she speaks? A 10 year old child could pick apart most of the SNP's arguments for this bloody so called second referendum!

[Gandahar]

Have you noticed how being in the EU has meant no Scottish job losses due to the reduction of the oil price?

Otherwise a lot of people could have suffered

It's that sort of stability that is needed now of course by aligning with Europe.

[Garvin]

gadgetmac said:

fluffnik said:

Hainey said:

I'm British, I just happened to have been born in Scotland.

I'm European, I just happened to have been born in Scotland.

One of No's promises/lies was that a No vote would keep us in the EU, that must have garnered a few votes - I know several No voters who value their EU citizenship far more than any Britishness.

I said exactly this on the 2nd Referendum thread. Sturgeon made it quite clear before the EU referendum that a leave vote against the wishes of the Scottish electorate would likely trigger another independence vote in Scotland. I knew this as did anyone who was paying attention. The English and the Welsh have ignored that and I think that Scotland should now exercise that right to reassess their position within or without the UK.

To those saying that Scotland is a "region" of the UK, it's not, it's a seperate country within a Union (which they joined over 300 years ago) much like the UK was/is within the EU. The North East of England is a "region".

Scotland the country voted Remain. It wasn't ambiguous. The electoral boundaries for the Scottish voters were all within Scotland they did not overlap with any English towns or villages. The English and Welsh voted to leave the Scottish want to stay. The situation is intolerable and sadly I'm certain from talking to my friends north of the border that they will leave the UK regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU. This vote just made Sturgeon even more popular up there. But you can't argue that YOU want to leave a union you don't like but then try to impose your own union on others who don't like it. I'm English and I have no problem with us, England, leaving the EU but we should do it alone and not drag an unwilling partner into an uncertain future when they don't want to come.

Nobody, but nobody, forced Scotland to remain in a union with rUK. Scotland were given a referendum and voted to stay in the union in the full knowledge that there would be a referendum on that union's membership of the EU.

[Edinburger]

gadgetmac said:

I said exactly this on the 2nd Referendum thread. Sturgeon made it quite clear before the EU referendum that a leave vote against the wishes of the Scottish electorate would likely trigger another independence vote in Scotland. I knew this as did anyone who was paying attention. The English and the Welsh have ignored that and I think that Scotland should now exercise that right to reassess their position within or without the UK.

To those saying that Scotland is a "region" of the UK, it's not, it's a seperate country within a Union (which they joined over 300 years ago) much like the UK was/is within the EU. The North East of England is a "region".

Scotland the country voted Remain. It wasn't ambiguous. The electoral boundaries for the Scottish voters were all within Scotland they did not overlap with any English towns or villages. The English and Welsh voted to leave the Scottish want to stay. The situation is intolerable and sadly I'm certain from talking to my friends north of the border that they will leave the UK regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU. This vote just made Sturgeon even more popular up there. But you can't argue that YOU want to leave a union you don't like but then try to impose your own union on others who don't like it. I'm English and I have no problem with us, England, leaving the EU but we should do it alone and not drag an unwilling partner into an uncertain future when they don't want to come.

Good post and I've been arguing many of those points through different volumes of this thread.

Thought: IF there's a second independence referendum and IF Scotland votes to leave the UK and IF we join the EU, will we then see a brain drain from rUK to Scotland?

[davepoth]

glazbagun said:

Wait, there someone who is leading? Who?

The British public.

[Gandahar]

Edinburger said:

Thought: IF there's a second independence referendum and IF Scotland votes to leave the UK and IF we join the EU, will we then see a brain drain from rUK to Scotland?

Could do, what science and hi tech services do you have up there that needs brains to be poached?

[gadgetmac]

Troubleatmill said:

Oh the irony... You did read a page or so back those nice letters from the EU explaining that if Scotland won independence - it would be immediately out of the EU. And it would have to apply for membership - and pass all of the tests ( which it is unable to do ).

Please tell me you read it - and you understood it.

Christ, another PH'er who can't understand the written word. I don't need to read the letters because that wasn't my point. Where in my post did I say that Scotland would stay a part of the EU? Indeed I actually said "regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU".

[Troubleatmill]

Edinburger said:

Good post and I've been arguing many of those points through different volumes of this thread.

Thought: IF there's a second independence referendum and IF Scotland votes to leave the UK and IF we join the EU, will we then see a brain drain from rUK to Scotland?

I can't believe you just posted that!

[gadgetmac]

Garvin said:

Nobody, but nobody, forced Scotland to remain in a union with rUK. Scotland were given a referendum and voted to stay in the union in the full knowledge that there would be a referendum on that union's membership of the EU.

Did the whole of fluffniks post simply fly over your head?

[Troubleatmill]

gadgetmac said:

Christ, another PH'er who can't understand the written word. I don't need to read the letters because that wasn't my point. Where in my post did I say that Scotland would stay a part of the EU? Indeed I actually said "regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU".

Fully read and understood what you said.

The UK is not holding a gun to Scotland.
Scotland had a referendum. England etc etc - didn't get a vote.

Scotland voted to remain.

So... with my point of Scotland having to apply to the EU... why does UK leaving EU give a mandate for another Scottish referendum?

[Leithen]

Edinburger said:

Thought: IF there's a second independence referendum and IF Scotland votes to leave the UK and IF we join the EU, will we then see a brain drain from rUK to Scotland?

With pitiful oil revenue, no Barnett, the Euro and deficit rules that would make todays "austerity" look like a children's party?

The only drain would be in the other direction, people fleeing into England.

One word - Greece.

[Gandahar]

gadgetmac said:

Troubleatmill said:

Oh the irony... You did read a page or so back those nice letters from the EU explaining that if Scotland won independence - it would be immediately out of the EU. And it would have to apply for membership - and pass all of the tests ( which it is unable to do ).

Please tell me you read it - and you understood it.

Christ, another PH'er who can't understand the written word. I don't need to read the letters because that wasn't my point. Where in my post did I say that Scotland would stay a part of the EU? Indeed I actually said "regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU".

If they are not part of the EU and not part of the UK what benefit is that to Scotland?

[gadgetmac]

Gandahar said:

gadgetmac said:

Troubleatmill said:

Oh the irony... You did read a page or so back those nice letters from the EU explaining that if Scotland won independence - it would be immediately out of the EU. And it would have to apply for membership - and pass all of the tests ( which it is unable to do ).

Please tell me you read it - and you understood it.

Christ, another PH'er who can't understand the written word. I don't need to read the letters because that wasn't my point. Where in my post did I say that Scotland would stay a part of the EU? Indeed I actually said "regardless of whether they are able to rejoin the EU".

If they are not part of the EU and not part of the UK what benefit is that to Scotland?

They can try to work towards rejoining the EU at the earliest opportunity which they can't from within the UK. They may not be able to meet the criteria today, tomorrow or next month or year but they can aspire to it.

I'll just paraphrase a leave campaign slogan and say "independence opens many doors and opportunities". If you've just voted leave in the EU referendum then you can't argue with that, can you?

[glazbagun]

Gandahar said:

Edinburger said:

Thought: IF there's a second independence referendum and IF Scotland votes to leave the UK and IF we join the EU, will we then see a brain drain from rUK to Scotland?

Could do, what science and hi tech services do you have up there that needs brains to be poached?

Financial services and biotech I think. Though I can't see the City not being at the top of any priorities list for the Brexit negotiations.

My biggest fear about independence post brexit would be having trade barriers between us and our biggest market. Anything England needs from the EU it can get via france so we'd lose that advantage and gain EU membership but be a boat ride away from that market.

Ideologically I feel I've shifted closer to Independence. Pragmatically it looks worse than before. Even if the pound crashes, it would be better than being stuck to the Euro if things went bad. This is lose/lose for Scotland.

[fizz47]

Am I hearing correct?


Scotland (sturgeon) could veto brexit? On bbc news now...

Any chance of this...

[tenfour]

Does this woman have an 'Off' button? She remind's me of other people's kids (i.e. to be avoided at all costs).

Sturgeon - We'll Veto UK Exit

Sure you will love. We'll just ignore the fact that the Scottish Parliament has no voting rights in the EU and let you have your wee blather. If bullst rhetoric was a crime...

Scotland voted to remain a part of the UK in 2014. That should be the end of it. Whether the UK would then exit the EU was not up for debate - this was a risk the Scots took when they voted for IndyRef. So to quote Nicola Sturgeon, it should be, "democratically unacceptable" to renege on the choice of the Scots' majority - the people she was elected to represent - just because it doesn't suit her myopic agenda.

Besides, IndyRef2 is a moot point: Scotland has only two years in which to leave the UK before the UK leaves Europe. Unfortunately (and ignoring the 5yr waiting list to join the EU), Scotland's GDP deficit currently stands at 11%. The max GDP deficit the EU will allow is 3%; meaning our Nicola has to find £11bn from somewhere to per her debts off. She didn't mention that little snippet in her William Wallace speech on Friday...

And to make matters more complicated, Scotland will require a currency to join the EU and with it, a central bank. It sure as hell won't use the Pound, so John Swinney needs to build himself a bank (oh, and a currency) and run it without a deficit for 3 yrs until the terms for joining the EU can be met.

Best they both get their skates on, then!

[tenfour]

fizz47 said:

Am I hearing correct?


Scotland (sturgeon) could veto brexit? On bbc news now...

Any chance of this...

No.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm curious to see at what point she'll realise blowing a lot of hot air isn't enough.