Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7

[Edinburger]

Troubleatmill said:

Edinburger said:

Good post and I've been arguing many of those points through different volumes of this thread.

Thought: IF there's a second independence referendum and IF Scotland votes to leave the UK and IF we join the EU, will we then see a brain drain from rUK to Scotland?

I can't believe you just posted that!

Why?

[ralphrj]

fizz47 said:

Am I hearing correct?


Scotland (sturgeon) could veto brexit? On bbc news now...

Any chance of this...

It would depend on the exact legal mechanism of exiting the EU as well as the precise powers devolved to regional executives. If at any point it requires approval by devolved executives (Scottish Parliament, Welsh & Northern Irish Assemblies) then, yes they could.

[tenfour]

ralphrj said:

It would depend on the exact legal mechanism of exiting the EU as well as the precise powers devolved to regional executives. If at any point it requires approval by devolved executives (Scottish Parliament, Welsh & Northern Irish Assemblies) then, yes they could.

Are you not ignoring the small elephant in the room, here?

[gadgetmac]

Scotland voted to stay in the UK on the basis that it was the ONLY way to ensure that they stayed in the UK, this was vocalised by the UK Govt who led the No campaign. They were sold a pup. If they had known that England and Wales would vote to leave the UK then great swaythes would likely have voted to leave the UK.

Bit like this





I do like reading all of these posts from EU leavers that Scotland must Stay in the UK. Very droll.

[tenfour]

gadgetmac said:

Scotland voted to stay in the UK on the basis that it was the ONLY way to ensure that they stayed in the UK, this was vocalised by the UK Govt who led the No campaign. They were sold a pup. If they had known that England and Wales would vote to leave the UK then great swaythes would likely have voted to leave the UK.

Bit like this





I do like reading all of these posts from EU leavers that Scotland must Stay in the UK. Very droll.

Well then my friend, it looks like you are required in Holyrood, pronto! Clearly you're the man with a plan to get Scotland to join the EU!

[ralphrj]

tenfour said:

Are you not ignoring the small elephant in the room, here?

You will have to point it out.

[tenfour]

ralphrj said:

tenfour said:

Are you not ignoring the small elephant in the room, here?

You will have to point it out.

The democratic vote. It means that regardless of geopolitics, Westminster called a vote of the UK people. Hence, it doesn't matter a toss where the remainers were based; they didn't win the majority.

Are you suggesting too, that London should also have a right of Veto? Or perhaps Newcastle? They both voted Remain by majority.

[wc98]

one of the first acts the next pm needs to do is to close these waste of space regional parliaments . get rid of a few more unnecessary troughers . no need for welsh or scottish parliaments.

[page3]

I think this is an interesting chart, showing real makeup of votes, rather than binary in/out.

[glazbagun]

Can Cameron invoke article 50 by himself or does he need a vote in parliament? It would be a bloodbath of career suicides, but I could see SNP, Tory and Labour MP's voting it down.

[tenfour]

page3 said:

I think this is an interesting chart, showing real makeup of votes, rather than binary in/out.

Well it would be if your chart actually said anything!

[tenfour]

wc98 said:

one of the first acts the next pm needs to do is to close these waste of space regional parliaments . get rid of a few more unnecessary troughers . no need for welsh or scottish parliaments.

Correct.

Can't comment on the WA, but Holyrood has been a national embarrassment since before it even opened: late and massively over budget, by the way. Just like Scotland's current leadership, come to think of it.

[technodup]

gadgetmac said:

I'll just paraphrase a leave campaign slogan and say "independence opens many doors and opportunities". If you've just voted leave in the EU referendum then you can't argue with that, can you?

Independence cannot by definition open the door of opportunity of union with other countries, for that is not independence.

The UK wants to be independent. Sturgeon does not.

gadgetmac said:

Scotland voted to stay in the UK on the basis that it was the ONLY way to ensure that they stayed in the UK

Only way it COULD stay actually. There has been talk of a referendum for several years, it wasn't a surprise.

[page3]

tenfour said:

Well it would be if your chart actually said anything!

%age of votes wanting to leave. Key at top. Sorry, not my chart, just posting "as is" to interpret as you see fit!

Yes, I think its a bit crap, but it's the only one I could find with this information on it

[ralphrj]

tenfour said:

ralphrj said:

tenfour said:

Are you not ignoring the small elephant in the room, here?

You will have to point it out.

The democratic vote. It means that regardless of geopolitics, Westminster called a vote of the UK people. Hence, it doesn't matter a toss where the remainers were based; they didn't win the majority.

Are you suggesting too, that London should also have a right of Veto? Or perhaps Newcastle? They both voted Remain by majority.

No I am not suggesting that at all. Neither London or Newcastle has the kind of legislative powers of the Scottish Parliament (or Welsh & NI Assemblies).

Sturgeon is implying that in order for the Westminster Parliament to repeal the European Communities Act 1972 they may need a legislative consent motion from the Scottish Parliament. If a legislative consent motion is required then the SNP may well be able to prevent the UK from exiting the EU.

Whether the Scottish Parliament does actually have this power will have to be established. If they do then they might trade it with Westminster for the right to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence.

It is no good saying the democratic vote was to leave so we have to leave. The referendum did not legally bind the Westminster Parliament to do anything so it is highly unlikely to have bound the Scottish Parliament to do something.

[Moonhawk]

tenfour said:

page3 said:

I think this is an interesting chart, showing real makeup of votes, rather than binary in/out.

Well it would be if your chart actually said anything!

It shows the percentage of votes for leave. The darker the colour the greater the percentage.

[technodup]

ralphrj said:

It is no good saying the democratic vote was to leave so we have to leave.

Erm... what part of the word 'democratic' are you having difficulty with?

[gadgetmac]

technodup said:

gadgetmac said:

I'll just paraphrase a leave campaign slogan and say "independence opens many doors and opportunities". If you've just voted leave in the EU referendum then you can't argue with that, can you?

Independence cannot by definition open the door of opportunity of union with other countries, for that is not independence.

The UK wants to be independent. Sturgeon does not.

gadgetmac said:

Scotland voted to stay in the UK on the basis that it was the ONLY way to ensure that they stayed in the UK

Only way it COULD stay actually. There has been talk of a referendum for several years, it wasn't a surprise.

Sturgeon DOES want independence, from the UK. She doesn't want to leave the EU. It's not too complicated to comprehend.

And Yes it was a surprise. It was a surprise that the English and Welsh would vote to leave, the bookies were offering 4/1, you're not keeping up with current worldwide events, turn your tv or radio on.

All of that is by-the-by though. There is now a crisis between what the English want and what the Scottish want and it's not some trivial issue over which they are at odds, it's how the 2 different countries see their future paths and chances for properity. We the English have had our say, we now need to hear from the Scots in the new dawn that we all find ourselves staring at and if they don't like it then they should go their own way - and I'm certain they will.

Edited by gadgetmac on Sunday 26th June 13:10

[ralphrj]

technodup said:

rm... what part of the word 'democratic' are you having difficulty with?

I'm not having any difficulty with the word democratic but I think others are struggling to understand that a referendum to do something does not necessarily oblige a Government to do it. For example, if the Government did decide to ignore the referendum result and was then challenged in court the court would not be interested in which way the vote went they would only be seeking to establish if the Government had the power to ignore it or not.

I am pointing out that to action that vote requires navigating a complicated set of legal mechanisms and there is a possibility (in my view a very, very slim one) that the Scottish Parliament could hold the rest of the UK to ransom.

[stevemiller]

I don't see anyone stating the obvious so I will put it in car terms.

On thursday the remain voters in Scotland were voting for something that looked to them like a BMW M3. They did not get the sale they wanted due to a family dispute. Now its Sunday and they return to the dealers and ask for the M3 however when they look under the bonnet rather than a twin turbo 3 litre it has a 2 litre single turbo and its change due to a drop in capacity and actual power. Do you still want to own that car?