Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
Edinburger said:
simoid said:
It's weird. Surely this the worst EVER time to consider independence, yet the nationalists still bleat on evermore... it would be a seriously good strategy to shut the f
k up or fk the fk off, as Malcolm Tucker possibly said, for at least a decade or so and then try again.
Would our yes supporters here agree that they look desperate and infantile?
Surely it would be weird if the SNP did nothing? k up or fk the fk off, as Malcolm Tucker possibly said, for at least a decade or so and then try again.Would our yes supporters here agree that they look desperate and infantile?
Edited by simoid on Monday 27th June 18:13
There's a clear difference between the wishes of the people of Scotland and the majority of UK voters. So it's surely quite right that the SNP at least look into options.
No.
Is that strange that they aren't?
No.
Edinburger said:
PRTVR said:
Edinburger said:
confused_buyer said:
So Sturgeon wants out of a Union which gives Scotland:
(a) Free and easy access to the market 70% of its trade is with.
(b) Subsidises it to the tune of £15bn a year.
(c) Allows it influence and say way out of proportion to its size in that Union.
and wants in with one which:
(a) It only does 15% of its trade with.
(b) Will probably charge it to be a member of.
(c) It will have pretty much zero say in.
(d) Will keep it hanging around for at least 7 years to be a member of.
Sensible stuff.
Apart from the anti-Scots sentiments, that's a good way of putting it.(a) Free and easy access to the market 70% of its trade is with.
(b) Subsidises it to the tune of £15bn a year.
(c) Allows it influence and say way out of proportion to its size in that Union.
and wants in with one which:
(a) It only does 15% of its trade with.
(b) Will probably charge it to be a member of.
(c) It will have pretty much zero say in.
(d) Will keep it hanging around for at least 7 years to be a member of.
Sensible stuff.
fluffnik said:
simoid said:
fluffnik said:
The people of Scotland want to stay in the EU, to a greater extent than they want to stay in the UK, our FM is on the case.
She has my full support.
fShe has my full support.
k your bullst. You have no right to say that.simoid said:
The people of Scotland voted for the UK to remain in the EU. Not Scotland.
I was hoping the whole UK would vote to stay in, but my main motivation for voting "Remain" was to protect my EU citizenship....and judging by the rush to acquire Irish or other EU second passports, I was far from alone!
My EU citizenship provides me with considerable utility and saves me money every year, but I could swap my British citizenship for any of the other 27 without feeling any loss, so I'm not that surprised.
t.Ridgemont said:
Reading the comments in Ian Martin's piece in the Spectator on Sturgeon's Brussels adventures http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/nicola-sturgeon...
One point that leapt out but is worth considering is the ability of the UK to kill independence stone dead forever by passing most of the constrained competences currently with the EU directly back to Scotland under the devolution settlement. Consider;
? agriculture and fisheries
? environment
? consumer protection
? transport
? energy
? common safety concerns in public health matters, limited to the aspects defined in the TFEU
? research, technological development and space
? development cooperation and humanitarian aid
All currently a shared EU competence. By essentially derogating them back to Scotland (and for that matter the other Home Countries) it would
1) create a properly devolved settlement
2) almost be impossible for Scotland to be presented with the EU option as feasible without having *less* sovereignty than they currently have within the UK.
Many of those are devolved responsibilities already so would be Holyrood's in the event of Brexit anyway.One point that leapt out but is worth considering is the ability of the UK to kill independence stone dead forever by passing most of the constrained competences currently with the EU directly back to Scotland under the devolution settlement. Consider;
? agriculture and fisheries
? environment
? consumer protection
? transport
? energy
? common safety concerns in public health matters, limited to the aspects defined in the TFEU
? research, technological development and space
? development cooperation and humanitarian aid
All currently a shared EU competence. By essentially derogating them back to Scotland (and for that matter the other Home Countries) it would
1) create a properly devolved settlement
2) almost be impossible for Scotland to be presented with the EU option as feasible without having *less* sovereignty than they currently have within the UK.
ShaunTheSheep said:
I'm always keen to scoop up good examples, do you have any to share?
I've been unimpressed with the line about spending on healthcare per head of population is higher than any other country in the uk yet life expectancy is lower. Partly because the rural and island nature of parts of the population mean healthcare is ludicrously expensive to provide.
One argument that does resonate with me is about tuition fees benefiting the middle classes while the poorest graduate with higher debts because grants have been cut to fund tuition fees.
Any other good ones that aren't easily refuted?
Well for a start your ascertations about life expectancy are wrong as it is the cities where they are lower - so how does costly health provision in the Highlands impede on that?I've been unimpressed with the line about spending on healthcare per head of population is higher than any other country in the uk yet life expectancy is lower. Partly because the rural and island nature of parts of the population mean healthcare is ludicrously expensive to provide.
One argument that does resonate with me is about tuition fees benefiting the middle classes while the poorest graduate with higher debts because grants have been cut to fund tuition fees.
Any other good ones that aren't easily refuted?
http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/lif...
Bottom four: Glasgow, West Dumbartonshire, Dundee and Inverclyde, as rural as it gets.
Axionknight said:
Well for a start your ascertations about life expectancy are wrong as it is the cities where they are lower - so how does costly health provision in the Highlands impede on that?
The figures for health care costs are published for per head in Scotland, not per head in Glasgow.mikal83 said:
I welcome a new referendum,I want one, I want the sweaties to go it alone, I want Krankie to fk of and become President of Scotland. Please please please dont fk up this time. Vote YES.
Am I the only one?
Nope, bring it on.k of and become President of Scotland. Please please please dont fk up this time. Vote YES.Am I the only one?
She should either stfu or call another referendum. I've every confidence once the campaigns start and the ffrrreeeedooooom bulls
t is exposed we'll vote to stay in the UK.Let's have it. Once and for all this time. Preferably with a disband Holyrood option somewhere.
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
I'm not saying I want that to happen or that I think it will happen - I'm saying it's on the table.
Can we stop using this phrase? It means absolutely nothing in this context. Sturgeon's table is covered in the political equivalent of junk mail, it doesn't mean it's being considered by anyone who matters.It's an utterly ridiculous idea to have four bits all separate from each other, bordered by other countries to come together as a single entity, purely for the purpose of staying in a s
t club we voted out of (and we did vote out of it, the answer Sturgeon's giving is an answer to a question unasked, i.e. if out of the UK do Scots want in the EU).I've always argued for less government, in every sense. I think this farce demonstrates quite clearly why less is more. She needs to wind her scrawny neck in, stfu and do something quiet and unobtrusive in Bute House. Preferably until she is deposed, retires or ceases to be.
Blair and Dewar have a lot to answer for. This whole devolution thing should have been killed at the outset.
Must be on the table, surely?
ShaunTheSheep said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Scotland voted to remain in the UK whilst knowing there was going to be a referendum and they might be forced out the EU.
There is no reason for a second referendum.
No referendum required, just execute exactly as has been chosen.There is no reason for a second referendum.
Scotland stays in the united kingdom and Europe. England and Wales seceed from UK / EU.
Scotland voted in UK, in Europe = check.
England voted out of Europe = check.
England, unencumbered by diluted sovereignty can even sort it's borders as it chooses. The opportunistic among the eu will be denied the leverage of the 2 year rule on article 50 to cause England pain because there would be no article 50.
Score all round.
Or Scotland, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and London stay in the United Kingdom and Europe. England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom and Europe.
Sylvaforever said:
technodup said:
ShaunTheSheep said:
Ah yeah I suppose so. In my defence, that bloody BBC put up pictures saying all the wards in Scotland voted remain. Lying bar stewards. I now realise they all voted leave.
It's really not that difficult. Scotland voted remain IN THE CONTEXT OF THE UK/EU situation. Not a Scotland/EU situation. We haven't been asked that, so you nor Sturgeon have the right to run around Europe with an assumption in your pocket and a load of hot air in your mouth.Well done the SNP.
In an anti-Scotland rant you're conveniently forgetting he loss of face and damage to the UK's reputation across the globe as well as job losses, economic hardship and everything else as a result of Brexit.
Perspective, sir.
simoid said:
Edinburger said:
simoid said:
It's weird. Surely this the worst EVER time to consider independence, yet the nationalists still bleat on evermore... it would be a seriously good strategy to shut the fk up or fk the fk off, as Malcolm Tucker possibly said, for at least a decade or so and then try again.
Would our yes supporters here agree that they look desperate and infantile?
Surely it would be weird if the SNP did nothing? k up or fk the fk off, as Malcolm Tucker possibly said, for at least a decade or so and then try again.Would our yes supporters here agree that they look desperate and infantile?
Edited by simoid on Monday 27th June 18:13
There's a clear difference between the wishes of the people of Scotland and the majority of UK voters. So it's surely quite right that the SNP at least look into options.
No.
Is that strange that they aren't?
No.
End of.
simoid said:
Edinburger said:
PRTVR said:
Edinburger said:
confused_buyer said:
So Sturgeon wants out of a Union which gives Scotland:
(a) Free and easy access to the market 70% of its trade is with.
(b) Subsidises it to the tune of £15bn a year.
(c) Allows it influence and say way out of proportion to its size in that Union.
and wants in with one which:
(a) It only does 15% of its trade with.
(b) Will probably charge it to be a member of.
(c) It will have pretty much zero say in.
(d) Will keep it hanging around for at least 7 years to be a member of.
Sensible stuff.
Apart from the anti-Scots sentiments, that's a good way of putting it.(a) Free and easy access to the market 70% of its trade is with.
(b) Subsidises it to the tune of £15bn a year.
(c) Allows it influence and say way out of proportion to its size in that Union.
and wants in with one which:
(a) It only does 15% of its trade with.
(b) Will probably charge it to be a member of.
(c) It will have pretty much zero say in.
(d) Will keep it hanging around for at least 7 years to be a member of.
Sensible stuff.
You know my response to that.
Axionknight said:
ShaunTheSheep said:
I'm always keen to scoop up good examples, do you have any to share?
I've been unimpressed with the line about spending on healthcare per head of population is higher than any other country in the uk yet life expectancy is lower. Partly because the rural and island nature of parts of the population mean healthcare is ludicrously expensive to provide.
One argument that does resonate with me is about tuition fees benefiting the middle classes while the poorest graduate with higher debts because grants have been cut to fund tuition fees.
Any other good ones that aren't easily refuted?
Well for a start your ascertations about life expectancy are wrong as it is the cities where they are lower - so how does costly health provision in the Highlands impede on that?I've been unimpressed with the line about spending on healthcare per head of population is higher than any other country in the uk yet life expectancy is lower. Partly because the rural and island nature of parts of the population mean healthcare is ludicrously expensive to provide.
One argument that does resonate with me is about tuition fees benefiting the middle classes while the poorest graduate with higher debts because grants have been cut to fund tuition fees.
Any other good ones that aren't easily refuted?
http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//statistics/lif...
Bottom four: Glasgow, West Dumbartonshire, Dundee and Inverclyde, as rural as it gets.
DocJock said:
Edinburger said:
Manchester, Bristol, Barnet, Liverpool, etc. are cities. Scotland is a country.
End of.
But not an independent, sovereign one. So, not "end of"... End of.
The big question is: is "end of" on the table?
Edinburger said:
What are you talking about?!?!
In an anti-Scotland rant you're conveniently forgetting he loss of face and damage to the UK's reputation across the globe
? I think a lot of people will be looking on with envy tbh. The globe is somewhat larger than the EU. And even within the EU whilst the bosses look with disgust the peoples see us setting an example.In an anti-Scotland rant you're conveniently forgetting he loss of face and damage to the UK's reputation across the globe
Edinburger said:
as well as job losses,
Where? I'm not saying there won't be, but I've not heard of any, and others will be created. It's been a week, so not sure how you can quantify that?Edinburger said:
economic hardship
Eh? See above.Edinburger said:
and everything else as a result of Brexit.
Waffle.Edinburger said:
Perspective, sir.
Facts, sir.Edinburger said:
Sylvaforever said:
technodup said:
ShaunTheSheep said:
Ah yeah I suppose so. In my defence, that bloody BBC put up pictures saying all the wards in Scotland voted remain. Lying bar stewards. I now realise they all voted leave.
It's really not that difficult. Scotland voted remain IN THE CONTEXT OF THE UK/EU situation. Not a Scotland/EU situation. We haven't been asked that, so you nor Sturgeon have the right to run around Europe with an assumption in your pocket and a load of hot air in your mouth.Well done the SNP.
In an anti-Scotland rant you're conveniently forgetting he loss of face and damage to the UK's reputation across the globe as well as job losses, economic hardship and everything else as a result of Brexit.
Perspective, sir.
The SNP have and continue to do massive damage to Scotland and her people.
What do you think of the cuts to welfare and health services that are being foisted onto the Scottish people by your "no/yes/no" nationalists and the absolute corruption that they have brought to the Scottish political and civil services??
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