Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
Yes - many powers are reserved. The powers it would be daft NOT to reserve as they're U.K. issues, and we chose to be a United Kingdom.
Question on the fuel duty - the Hebrides have a discount I believe? 5p per litre? Think that was a Scottish Government initiative.
Scotland does have a deficit - money spent and taxed every year is measured and we're many billions down. The SNP rearrange these figures too, as there are inaccuracies in the UK figures before they become GERS. Serious question - why do you think nobody has come up with a budgetary range for an independent Scotland if these are so inaccurate? Why didn't the SNP publish an idea of a plan in their White Paper? I suspect the answer is either - because they didn't want independence and are stringing 45% along, or because they know it would be so unfavourable nobody would vote for it.
Question on the fuel duty - the Hebrides have a discount I believe? 5p per litre? Think that was a Scottish Government initiative.
Scotland does have a deficit - money spent and taxed every year is measured and we're many billions down. The SNP rearrange these figures too, as there are inaccuracies in the UK figures before they become GERS. Serious question - why do you think nobody has come up with a budgetary range for an independent Scotland if these are so inaccurate? Why didn't the SNP publish an idea of a plan in their White Paper? I suspect the answer is either - because they didn't want independence and are stringing 45% along, or because they know it would be so unfavourable nobody would vote for it.
contango said:
What amazes me is that the voice of scotland we see in England/London is that of the snp, it has certainly come across as anti English.
You only have to look at the poor conduct of your representatives in Westminster, say what you like, but when they refuse to act with decorum on such events as Cameron leaving the house, that refects on you, scotland.
The point being the snp would most likely lose a referendum if it was announced tomorrow, possibly by a larger margin than before?
Where are all of the silent majority, at which point will it make sense for them to stand up and show the world the current representation of scotland is not a true representation?
Maybe that would help investment toward a prosperous future for scotland.
I do think, from the perspective of many in England, the silent majority of scots are letting themselves down...badly!
I'm not sure what you're on about this "silent majority". Are you expecting Scots to magically ensure that 50 odd MPs and our Scottish Government just shut up? They're obviously going to get the air time. A look around the internet reveals the majority are not silent.You only have to look at the poor conduct of your representatives in Westminster, say what you like, but when they refuse to act with decorum on such events as Cameron leaving the house, that refects on you, scotland.
The point being the snp would most likely lose a referendum if it was announced tomorrow, possibly by a larger margin than before?
Where are all of the silent majority, at which point will it make sense for them to stand up and show the world the current representation of scotland is not a true representation?
Maybe that would help investment toward a prosperous future for scotland.
I do think, from the perspective of many in England, the silent majority of scots are letting themselves down...badly!
GoneAnon said:
...I'm reminded of the saying about repeating the same actions and expecting a different result... but you think the Union has been a success for Scotland and I don't....
A bit like continually voting the SNP in when they seem intent on running Scotland into the ground to prove a point and to try and get what the majority of Scots do not want.The English don't wish ill of the Scots. But the incessant whining of the minority becomes very tiresome and inevitably tars the majority sadly in some quarters. Especially when regions of the rest of the UK receive far less support and yet you still cannot see how well you do.
simoid said:
The SNP totally control Scotland's education, NHS, transport, police, fire service, income tax rates, bands, and more. I'm not sure that counts as "limited". It's direct control over almost everything that affects our daily lives.
More over look at the areas that the SNP are totally f
king up or (arguably worse) not touching at all despite their rhetoric. It correlates nicely.Why on earth would any sane Scot, let alone the rest of the UK, want to give the SNP even more powers with their track record?
simoid said:
The SNP totally control Scotland's education, NHS, transport, police, fire service, income tax rates, bands, and more. I'm not sure that counts as "limited". It's direct control over almost everything that affects our daily lives.
The Scottish Police and Fire Service are the only ones in the UK that can't recover the VAT they have to pay out. Why is that?They have a limited range of income tax powers as detailed above. They can't alter the bands and are only able to vary the lower and upper rate by the same amount, which isn't really useful. A) It isn't remotely redistributive and, B), if they increase tax, the block grant will "probably" be cut, and if they cut the rate, the block grant will almost certainly be cut - imagine the scene: "If the Jocks can afford tax cuts the don't need all this subsidy from us super-generous Westminster folks".
GoneAnon said:
As for the idea of using the "powers" of the Scottish Parliament, you might need to point out for me exactly what it is you think could actually be DONE with these "powers".
They have the greatest power at their disposal to boost the economy all she has to say is "there will be no more indy refs" 
contango said:
You only have to look at the poor conduct of your representatives in Westminster, say what you like, but when they refuse to act with decorum on such events as Cameron leaving the house, that refects on you, scotland.
The new SNP MPs were told it was iappropriate to applaud in the chamber, so what suddenly changed to make it OK when Dave C chose to leave? Did anyone applaud when Alex S stood down after losing HIS referendum? (I know they cheered when he lost, but they weren't laughing when he returned to the UK Parliament.Apparently, in the UK democracy, it is more appropriate to behave like a boor, shouting, grunting and waving papers around like a mad thing.
If that is what passes as decorum, I'm glad they refused to join in,
Nick Grant said:
They have the greatest power at their disposal to boost the economy all she has to say is "there will be no more indy refs"
And Theresa M could say there won't be a Brexit after all. I don't think either will happen!Dave C told the world that a referendum isn't binding until parliament make it legal. Did that ever happen ahead of the euro vote?
GoneAnon said:
And Theresa M could say there won't be a Brexit after all. I don't think either will happen!
Dave C told the world that a referendum isn't binding until parliament make it legal. Did that ever happen ahead of the euro vote?
I'd like that too Dave C told the world that a referendum isn't binding until parliament make it legal. Did that ever happen ahead of the euro vote?
I want the world to work towards peace, dividing it up into smaller parts is a move away from that. 
GoneAnon said:
utterly convinced that Independence offers the best future for me and my family.
Why?GoneAnon said:
If any of our unionist chums can find an actual flaw in the piece, do please share. Don't say something that isn't there, or twist a convuluted non-intended meaning when the proper intention is clear, and don't make anything up. And don't resort to name-calling etc.
--
So to recap: the Scottish Government doesn’t have a deficit (the UK one does, and palms some of it off onto Scotland); if Scotland was independent nobody has the remotest clue how big its deficit would be even to within the nearest £10bn (because it would depend on independence negotiations and a raft of policy choices that haven’t been made yet); and until it is the Scottish Government can – by design – do almost nothing to affect the country’s economy."
The suggestion he's trying to make to the Yes plebs is that because technically Scotland doesn't have a deficit, due to it not being a real country it's somehow likely to be lower than claimed. The talk of negotiations strengthens this idea that come D-day the SNP will magic away any debt related to the UK. It's a common talking point on Wings comments, the Yes FB groups etc. --
So to recap: the Scottish Government doesn’t have a deficit (the UK one does, and palms some of it off onto Scotland); if Scotland was independent nobody has the remotest clue how big its deficit would be even to within the nearest £10bn (because it would depend on independence negotiations and a raft of policy choices that haven’t been made yet); and until it is the Scottish Government can – by design – do almost nothing to affect the country’s economy."
The SNP believe the UK will get the s
tty end of the stick in the EU exit negotiation. And at the same time believe they will hold the trump cards in their UK exit negotiations...If Scotland gets a poor deal now (as they believe) what sort of deal will we get if we decide to f
k off?He is right in the reserved matters, although any f
kwit can look at the list on various websites, it's hardly news. And it's just as well they are. Can you imagine the sad bunch of social workers and ex-teachers of Holyrood debating anything which actually mattered?Disband it. Sack the EU. Sack Holyrood. Long live Westminster, a proper parliament.
Rollin said:
May as well get rid of the Scottish Parliament if even the nats think it's useless.
Its not useless and has made a number of good changes for Sotland, not all by the SNP:Banning smoking in public places
Abolishing bridge tolls
Tuition fees
Ending the disgrace of PFI
Hospital parking charges abolished (except at the LabLib PFI hospital where the contract can't be ended)
Amalgamating 8 police forces and 8 fire brigades (for a population of 5-6 million) into single bodies.
It just doesn't have the powers that any normal country would have. What we have now is a half-way house that really satisfies no-one.
A federal system MIGHT make devolution workable within the UK but that isn't on offer despite Gordon B's last-minute intervention, broadcast live for over an hour for no apparent reason.
GoneAnon said:
The Scottish Police and Fire Service are the only ones in the UK that can't recover the VAT they have to pay out. Why is that?
They have a limited range of income tax powers as detailed above. They can't alter the bands and are only able to vary the lower and upper rate by the same amount, which isn't really useful. A) It isn't remotely redistributive and, B), if they increase tax, the block grant will "probably" be cut, and if they cut the rate, the block grant will almost certainly be cut - imagine the scene: "If the Jocks can afford tax cuts the don't need all this subsidy from us super-generous Westminster folks".
I'm investigating the Police/Fire VAT thing. I recall it was to do with the fact it's a national service. Incidentally, the EU don't allow Holyrood to set VAT rates. It's not a Westminster thing.They have a limited range of income tax powers as detailed above. They can't alter the bands and are only able to vary the lower and upper rate by the same amount, which isn't really useful. A) It isn't remotely redistributive and, B), if they increase tax, the block grant will "probably" be cut, and if they cut the rate, the block grant will almost certainly be cut - imagine the scene: "If the Jocks can afford tax cuts the don't need all this subsidy from us super-generous Westminster folks".
It would be well short of sensible to have noticeably different income or corporation tax rates between Berwick and North Berwick for obvious reasons. Those are the reasons independence is inescapably limited for Scotland, whether we're in the U.K., EU or independent.
"Inescapably limited". Not my words, the words of the man First Minister Salmond hired to advise him on economic matters: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-scotland-13588...
technodup said:
He is right in the reserved matters, although any fkwit can look at the list on various websites, it's hardly news. And it's just as well they are. Can you imagine the sad bunch of social workers and ex-teachers of Holyrood debating anything which actually mattered?
Disband it. Sack the EU. Sack Holyrood. Long live Westminster, a proper parliament.
As opposed to the quality in depth that sits at Westminster? (And I am talking about all parties)kwit can look at the list on various websites, it's hardly news. And it's just as well they are. Can you imagine the sad bunch of social workers and ex-teachers of Holyrood debating anything which actually mattered?Disband it. Sack the EU. Sack Holyrood. Long live Westminster, a proper parliament.
I'd rather have people who have had real jobs sitting in a parliament than some of the career politicians or "policy geeks" like the Millibands, Corbyn, etc.
The two groups you choose to single out are doing difficult but important jobs that I wouldn't want to do and probably couldn't do. In truth, could you? If not, I'd say you owe them an apology.
simoid said:
I'm investigating the Police/Fire VAT thing. I recall it was to do with the fact it's a national service. Incidentally, the EU don't allow Holyrood to set VAT rates. It's not a Westminster thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-18569696Note the bits that say:
it was the UK Government who refused to change the rule.
And the same UK government changed the rule to let the English Academies recover VAT.
simoid said:
It would be well short of sensible to have noticeably different income or corporation tax rates between Berwick and North Berwick for obvious reasons. Those are the reasons independence is inescapably limited for Scotland, whether we're in the U.K., EU or independent.
"Inescapably limited". Not my words, the words of the man First Minister Salmond hired to advise him on economic matters: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-scotland-13588...
Seems to work for Ireland."Inescapably limited". Not my words, the words of the man First Minister Salmond hired to advise him on economic matters: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-scotland-13588...
technodup said:
GoneAnon said:
utterly convinced that Independence offers the best future for me and my family.
Why?GoneAnon said:
If any of our unionist chums can find an actual flaw in the piece, do please share. Don't say something that isn't there, or twist a convuluted non-intended meaning when the proper intention is clear, and don't make anything up. And don't resort to name-calling etc.
--
So to recap: the Scottish Government doesn’t have a deficit (the UK one does, and palms some of it off onto Scotland); if Scotland was independent nobody has the remotest clue how big its deficit would be even to within the nearest £10bn (because it would depend on independence negotiations and a raft of policy choices that haven’t been made yet); and until it is the Scottish Government can – by design – do almost nothing to affect the country’s economy."
The suggestion he's trying to make to the Yes plebs is that because technically Scotland doesn't have a deficit, due to it not being a real country it's somehow likely to be lower than claimed. The talk of negotiations strengthens this idea that come D-day the SNP will magic away any debt related to the UK. It's a common talking point on Wings comments, the Yes FB groups etc. --
So to recap: the Scottish Government doesn’t have a deficit (the UK one does, and palms some of it off onto Scotland); if Scotland was independent nobody has the remotest clue how big its deficit would be even to within the nearest £10bn (because it would depend on independence negotiations and a raft of policy choices that haven’t been made yet); and until it is the Scottish Government can – by design – do almost nothing to affect the country’s economy."
The SNP believe the UK will get the s
tty end of the stick in the EU exit negotiation. And at the same time believe they will hold the trump cards in their UK exit negotiations...If Scotland gets a poor deal now (as they believe) what sort of deal will we get if we decide to f
k off?He is right in the reserved matters, although any f
kwit can look at the list on various websites, it's hardly news. And it's just as well they are. Can you imagine the sad bunch of social workers and ex-teachers of Holyrood debating anything which actually mattered?Disband it. Sack the EU. Sack Holyrood. Long live Westminster, a proper parliament.
I know you who I mean and what I mean.
contango said:
Where are all of the silent majority, at which point will it make sense for them to stand up and show the world the current representation of scotland is not a true representation?
Maybe that would help investment toward a prosperous future for scotland.
I do think, from the perspective of many in England, the silent majority of scots are letting themselves down...badly!
I didn't vote for the SNP last year or this year and I fully intend to vote the same way for the forseeable future; what else am I expected to do? Combined with the FPTP system there were enough impressionable types to give the SNP a landslide of scottish seats at Westminster.Maybe that would help investment toward a prosperous future for scotland.
I do think, from the perspective of many in England, the silent majority of scots are letting themselves down...badly!
GoneAnon said:
The Scottish Police and Fire Service are the only ones in the UK that can't recover the VAT they have to pay out. Why is that?
Because every vaguely competent body from HMRC downwards repeatedly told the government that amalgamating dibble and trumpton from regional forces into national forces would lose them the right to not pay VAT and it might be a good idea to wait until that was sorted out before pulling the trigger. Their advice was ignored and there was no consideration of any plan other than 'centralise everything and have one big force'.
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