Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
SilverSixer said:
Very well put, caelite. Nothing is certain, nothing concrete. I'm sure many people in Scotland believed the SNP when they said that an indy Scotland could stay in or easily accede to the EU. They may be right, they may be wrong, but a lot of people will have taken that position into their considerations when deciding which way to vote in IndyRef1. If they'd won the Ref I'm sure there would have been an intense negotiation with the EU and perhaps the 'blockers' could have been overcome. There was political will on both sides, after all. There will be again.
It's a complex mess of opinions and desires. Add constant political flux to the mix and the questions are always going to be valid.
I really don't mean to sound harsh, but that is cobblers. As a question of law, Scotland would have left the EU by virtue of leaving the UK. No ifs, buts, or maybes; we'd have been out. The SG had correspondence from the Vice President of the fIt's a complex mess of opinions and desires. Add constant political flux to the mix and the questions are always going to be valid.
king EU Commission making this exact point. Twice. As a question of fact, several MS with secessionist movements won't like it, and the Spanish will veto any discussion of it. The best option for Scotland on this front would be to hope that Spain breaks up first.
Those claiming Scotland would be automatically in/ have an easy route into the EU are either monumentally stupid or duplicitous. More than anything else, it's a betrayal of our country to make such demonstrably false claims and pretend they are true. I'm with CP Scott's famous Guardian editorial on this one.
C.P. Scott said:
Neither in what it gives, nor in what it does not give, nor in the mode of presentation must the unclouded face of truth suffer wrong. Comment is free, but facts are sacred. "Propaganda", so called, by this means is hateful. The voice of opponents no less than that of friends has a right to be heard. Comment also is justly subject to a self-imposed restraint. It is well to be frank; it is even better to be fair. This is an ideal.
Wombat3 said:
Its quite simple, the cause of the irritation lies entirely with Nationalist tts who seem to take the view that "Democracy is fine as long as we win"
Meanwhile
1) They lost the vote and then, it seems, lied about respecting the result.
2) Perpetuating the campaign for independence in the face of that is a stupid distraction that the rest of the country really doesn't need. Its costing, time, effort, is disruptive and destabilising in Scotland and to a lesser extent elsewhere - and we have much more important things to deal with than appeasing a small minority of ingrates.
The country (and Scotland especially) would be a great deal better off if Nationalists recognised, accept and respected the fact that they represent about 3-4% of the population of the UK and the other 96% really wish that they would STFU so that we can try and get on with life!
It'll never happen of course because so many of them are little more than bigoteds. No matter how its dressed up it's all about (a hatred of) the English, always has been, always will be. The only minor problem is that Scotland would be on its arse but for the English, inconvenient though that may be.
Is it irritating? yep, its really fking irritating, so why would you be surprised at a bit of vitriol over it?
Like a lot of people I used to have a fair amount of time for Scotland. I lived there, I was educated there, I have family there. These days? I avoid going there & I really don't care for it much any more - and I don't think I'm alone in that. You reap what you sow.
Spot.ts who seem to take the view that "Democracy is fine as long as we win"Meanwhile
1) They lost the vote and then, it seems, lied about respecting the result.
2) Perpetuating the campaign for independence in the face of that is a stupid distraction that the rest of the country really doesn't need. Its costing, time, effort, is disruptive and destabilising in Scotland and to a lesser extent elsewhere - and we have much more important things to deal with than appeasing a small minority of ingrates.
The country (and Scotland especially) would be a great deal better off if Nationalists recognised, accept and respected the fact that they represent about 3-4% of the population of the UK and the other 96% really wish that they would STFU so that we can try and get on with life!
It'll never happen of course because so many of them are little more than bigoted
s. No matter how its dressed up it's all about (a hatred of) the English, always has been, always will be. The only minor problem is that Scotland would be on its arse but for the English, inconvenient though that may be.Is it irritating? yep, its really f
king irritating, so why would you be surprised at a bit of vitriol over it? Like a lot of people I used to have a fair amount of time for Scotland. I lived there, I was educated there, I have family there. These days? I avoid going there & I really don't care for it much any more - and I don't think I'm alone in that. You reap what you sow.
On.
B'stard Child said:
GoneAnon said:
Thhe thread really is full of haters and it would surely be better for all us independence-minded folk to have our own thread
You know how a discussion forum works?Go and start one and sit there on your own, feeling happy whilst spouting views and opinions no one will challenge.
A.J.M said:
It's only discussion, democracy and the settled will when it goes one way.
The SNP lead by deed - ignoring democracy when it suits them, so what else can we expect from their faithful?! They talk of the 'democratic deficit' that led to Scotland being 'dragged out of the EU against its will', yet the democratic decision of the same people two years earlier is ignored.I was challenged in the past by the permanently banned Strocky to state my politics, and my answer then (as it is now) was 'anything but SNP', the reason being they are not a political party but a protest movement where truth and demoncracy are abused in the pursuit of their single aim.
http://news.sky.com/story/scotland-targets-free-tr...
Or is it a) trying to make the UK ungovernable, as a coherent entity, so unworkable that breaking up the union is inevitable,
Or more straightforwardly b) trying to become an independent state within a state, without getting a democratic mandate for independence.
Anybody not seeing straight through this?
Or is it a) trying to make the UK ungovernable, as a coherent entity, so unworkable that breaking up the union is inevitable,
Or more straightforwardly b) trying to become an independent state within a state, without getting a democratic mandate for independence.
Anybody not seeing straight through this?
I can't be the only who who is tired of seeing her ugly mush on the telly 'demanding' this or that. I can't even be arsed to get overly annoyed about it anymore.
Let's stop beating around the bush here, let's have another referendum.
What's the currency going to be Nicola? Erm...
Are we going to be in the EU? Ehhh...
What's the plan for the deficit/low oil price/oil running out? Ahh...
We don't even need a new campaign, we can just run the tapes from last time. fk all's changed.
Let's stop beating around the bush here, let's have another referendum.
What's the currency going to be Nicola? Erm...
Are we going to be in the EU? Ehhh...
What's the plan for the deficit/low oil price/oil running out? Ahh...
We don't even need a new campaign, we can just run the tapes from last time. f
k all's changed.Northern Munkee said:
http://news.sky.com/story/scotland-targets-free-tr...
Or is it a) trying to make the UK ungovernable, as a coherent entity, so unworkable that breaking up the union is inevitable,
Or more straightforwardly b) trying to become an independent state within a state, without getting a democratic mandate for independence.
Anybody not seeing straight through this?
Some of us do see through this. I voted to remain as part of the UK last time, If there is yet another referendum on this I'll vote to remain as part of the UK again. I also voted leave on the EU issue. When I listen to Sturgeon, all I hear is "Scotland has spoken in this manner blah, blah blah "Or is it a) trying to make the UK ungovernable, as a coherent entity, so unworkable that breaking up the union is inevitable,
Or more straightforwardly b) trying to become an independent state within a state, without getting a democratic mandate for independence.
Anybody not seeing straight through this?
I'm sorry but not everyone shares Nicola Sturgeons opinions, I certainly don't. I find her constant posturing at best highly uncomfortable and at times just plain tedious. Angus Robertson is even worse, an odious self serving mouthpiece of a man, imho.
Part of me wishes that Theresa May would let her run her Indyref2 again, in the event the SNP loses again (which I believe it would ) Nicola is finished, and no-one knows that better than her.
The only reason the SNP are in power up here is that the demographic of Scotlands population which would likely support a right leaning party simply isn't large enough. The proletariat feels betrayed by Labour, the party of the "working man" which has done nothing for them for decades, and now has been hijacked by 500,000 disciples of Messiah Corbyn. Hence becoming unelectable in the first place. Cue the SNP rise to infamy as they come across as vehemently left wing.
Some rabid SNP supporter will be along in a minute to tell you, I'm wrong and we are all behind Nicola,s banner and were all desperate to remain in the EU.
That simply isn't so ........
SNP and settled democratic will:
2m people voted U.K. "For a lifetime" ignored
1.6m people voted Indy - not ignored
17.4m Brits vote leave - ignored
1m Scots voted leave - ignored
1m Scots vote SNP - not ignored
1/3 of SNP Brexiters - ignored
You're allowed a democratic choice if you're on Nicola's side.
2m people voted U.K. "For a lifetime" ignored
1.6m people voted Indy - not ignored
17.4m Brits vote leave - ignored
1m Scots voted leave - ignored
1m Scots vote SNP - not ignored
1/3 of SNP Brexiters - ignored
You're allowed a democratic choice if you're on Nicola's side.
GoneAnon said:
simoid said:
You did mention VAT rates - in the quoted hypothetical conversation between Sturgeon and adviser Sturgeon asked to drop VAT.
The hypocrisy here is off the scale - you're now extolling the virtues of economies of scale: the main advantage of our United Kingdom. One army, navy, Air Force, border, pension pot, foreign office, central bank, currency...
I was replying to your comment on VAT for the Police and Fire services in Scotland.The hypocrisy here is off the scale - you're now extolling the virtues of economies of scale: the main advantage of our United Kingdom. One army, navy, Air Force, border, pension pot, foreign office, central bank, currency...
I believe in economoies of scale but NOT where the larger partner is the favoured entity as we have with England versus the rest of the UK. If there was an equal partnership like we keep being told there is, with four votes (one each for E, W, S & NI) that would be a different kettle of fish but given the enormous population differences, that isn't going to happen.
We can see that by simple arithmetic, England can ALWAYS outvote the rest of us on ANY issue.
How is it fair for <2m Northern Irish folk to have the same voice as >50m English? Do you think the English are inferior people?
The EU referendum was UK wide. Some areas voted to remain in the EU, whilst others voted to leave. The overall result was for the UK to leave the EU.
Strange how the pot bellied kranky, thought it was OK for Welsh, Northern Irish and English citizens not to be given a vote in the Scottish independence referendum, but had the vote on that referendum be given to the UK as a whole, it is quite possible she would have achieved independence for Scotland.
It seems she supports selective voting, when it suits her to give the answer she wants.
Strange how the pot bellied kranky, thought it was OK for Welsh, Northern Irish and English citizens not to be given a vote in the Scottish independence referendum, but had the vote on that referendum be given to the UK as a whole, it is quite possible she would have achieved independence for Scotland.
It seems she supports selective voting, when it suits her to give the answer she wants.
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