The 'No to the EU' campaign

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Trif

746 posts

172 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
don4l said:
Why do people just make stuff up?

Do they think that we all have Alzheimers?

rs, please stop making stuff up.
I'm not going to speak for what it was like travelling across the EU in the 70's but when I visited Croatia by train from Europe (before they were in it), the passport/customs check stop was very short with a couple of guards per carriage.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Leaked copy of text for EU reform show that after 7 days of supposed wrangling Cameron is losing ground on a deal that was already square root of bugger all.

link

Appears that the vision of a multi speed multi currency Europe has been crushed, all countries will have ultimately to join the Euro, although there's a rider about the current situation with countries which currently have a specific opt out, namely Britain and Denmark.

Also some concerns that protection for the City has been watered down.

How can this joker look the nation in the eye and say this is a deal to be recommended and significantly reforms Europe. It and he is a joke.

Vote Leave.

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FiF said:
How can this joker look the nation in the eye and say this is a deal to be recommended and significantly reforms Europe. It and he is a joke.
Indeed, and I don't believe he will but he has said he will rule nothing out. As we know Cameron is an EU lover through and through, but we also know that he is a career politician. I really really really don't think it would happen, but there is a tiny tiny possibility that if 'remain' looks like a total lost cause he could switch sides just to be on the winning team.

Just had a nice email from my Tory MP saying he believes we should leave. smile

Beati Dogu

8,862 posts

138 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
FiF said:
How can this joker look the nation in the eye and say this is a deal to be recommended and significantly reforms Europe. It and he is a joke.
This is "Cast Iron" Dave we're talking about.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/03/david...

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Thursday 11th February 2016
quotequote all
Trif said:
don4l said:
Why do people just make stuff up?

Do they think that we all have Alzheimers?

rs, please stop making stuff up.
I'm not going to speak for what it was like travelling across the EU in the 70's but when I visited Croatia by train from Europe (before they were in it), the passport/customs check stop was very short with a couple of guards per carriage.
I can rember driving from Spain (before she was a member of the EEC) into France. I had some valuable stuff in the car, so I decided it would be safer to declare it. As I drove up to the red lane, a customs officer waved his truncheon at me and made it very clear that I should go through the green lane(which I did).

I may have had to show my passport - I really don't remember.

The idea that travel to Europe would become difficult if we Brexit is risible.

That people would even make such a daft suggestion shows that they really have no logical reasons for staying.

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
I am having difficulty understanding the Cameron strategy so far, perhaps someone can explain it to me.

He offers the referendum, and being a europhile, must have assumed it is in the bag or else he would not have offered it, much like the Scottish referendum.

The blunders of the EU, are making it increasingly difficult to argue for it, the shuttle almost begging diplomatic negotiations, reminds me of Blair before the invasion of Iraq, frantic arm waving, bravado and bluster but merely for affect, as he must realise that it will come to nothing or close to it. The continual exposure of underhanded methods to bias the referendum, through the question, canvassing sleight of hand, budgets and gagging of Conservatives, incompetent FUD campaign etc.

The polls have brexit leading, I am noticing an increasing level of Euroscepticism, even the BBC is battling to keep it under wraps, so what is his strategy here? Does he have some master plan that will be unveiled to a dumbfounded public or is he really as incompetent, reactive, directionless and capricious as it looks to be on face value?

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 12th February 09:44

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
He offers the referendum, and being a europhile, must have assumed it is in the bag or else he would not have offered it, much like the Scottish referendum.
He didn't think he would win a majority.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
I am having difficulty understanding the Cameron strategy so far, perhaps someone can explain it to me.

He offers the referendum, and being a europhile, must have assumed it is in the bag or else he would not have offered it, much like the Scottish referendum.

The blunders of the EU, are making it increasingly difficult to argue for it, the shuttle almost begging diplomatic negotiations, reminds me of Blair before the invasion of Iraq, frantic arm waving, bravado and bluster but merely for affect, as he must realise that it will come to nothing or close to it. The continual exposure of underhanded methods to bias the referendum, through the question, canvassing sleight of hand, budgets and gagging of Conservatives, incompetent FUD campaign etc.

The polls have brexit leading, I am noticing an increasing level of Euroscepticism, even the BBC is battling to keep it under wraps, so what is his strategy here? Does he have some master plan that will be unveiled to a dumbfounded public or is he really as incompetent, reactive, directionless and capricious as it looks to be on face value?

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 12th February 09:44
I have to say, sadly, that judging by the complete chaos on the leave side, and the totally amateurish infighting, coupled with the repeated requests for exit strategies that personally I regard as "The suicide option ", plus the complete disregard and bad mouthing for any exit strategy which suggests that a staged controlled exit which will involve making some compromises on budgets, borders and so on, then the Leave side are in grave danger of being, as things stand, almost certain to lose. Note Leave side to lose it, which does not mean that Remain will have actively won. If you see what I'm getting at.

Despairs at the idiocy on display at times.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
I disagree, the only shambles is one group, everybody else has pulled together (under the GO banner).

The awkward squad are typically Westminster policical types.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
GO are in a Euroscepticism bubble. Farage blathering on about immigration being the winning ticket, Hoey wittering up blind alleys.

I don't have your faith, sorry.

http://thescepticisle.com/2016/01/25/eurosceptics-...

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
FiF said:
GO are in a Euroscepticism bubble. Farage blathering on about immigration being the winning ticket, Hoey wittering up blind alleys.

I don't have your faith, sorry.

http://thescepticisle.com/2016/01/25/eurosceptics-...
Hoey is indeed a witterer. Farage is not going to persuade anyone he hasn't already persuaded.

TEKNOPUG

18,843 posts

204 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
I am having difficulty understanding the Cameron strategy so far, perhaps someone can explain it to me.

He offers the referendum, and being a europhile, must have assumed it is in the bag or else he would not have offered it, much like the Scottish referendum.

The blunders of the EU, are making it increasingly difficult to argue for it, the shuttle almost begging diplomatic negotiations, reminds me of Blair before the invasion of Iraq, frantic arm waving, bravado and bluster but merely for affect, as he must realise that it will come to nothing or close to it. The continual exposure of underhanded methods to bias the referendum, through the question, canvassing sleight of hand, budgets and gagging of Conservatives, incompetent FUD campaign etc.

The polls have brexit leading, I am noticing an increasing level of Euroscepticism, even the BBC is battling to keep it under wraps, so what is his strategy here? Does he have some master plan that will be unveiled to a dumbfounded public or is he really as incompetent, reactive, directionless and capricious as it looks to be on face value?

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 12th February 09:44
It's really a massive bluff and he is actually a Euro-sceptic. He wants to be seen to be advocating stay, whilst undermining it at the same time. Genius.

Or I have been watching too much House of Cards?

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
I am having difficulty understanding the Cameron strategy so far, perhaps someone can explain it to me.

He offers the referendum, and being a europhile, must have assumed it is in the bag or else he would not have offered it, much like the Scottish referendum.

The blunders of the EU, are making it increasingly difficult to argue for it, the shuttle almost begging diplomatic negotiations, reminds me of Blair before the invasion of Iraq, frantic arm waving, bravado and bluster but merely for affect, as he must realise that it will come to nothing or close to it. The continual exposure of underhanded methods to bias the referendum, through the question, canvassing sleight of hand, budgets and gagging of Conservatives, incompetent FUD campaign etc.

The polls have brexit leading, I am noticing an increasing level of Euroscepticism, even the BBC is battling to keep it under wraps, so what is his strategy here? Does he have some master plan that will be unveiled to a dumbfounded public or is he really as incompetent, reactive, directionless and capricious as it looks to be on face value?

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 12th February 09:44
Yes, I posted similar recently. I don't understand why he would choose to put himself in this position - there's nothing to be gained for an EU-phile in having the vote.
And if he thinks that having the vote is a good thing in itself, why is he campaigning (and so badly) for one side?
Did he think he could use the referendum as leverage to get what he wants from the EU? No, he'd have surely asked for something meaningful if that was it.

I can only conclude that he's a bit of a numpty. Or so incredibly devious that he's playing a game I can't fathom. But it seems a very high-risk game, whichever side he's actually on.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Apropos of not much really, and it may be the wrong thread where this conversation happened, but a recurring theme seems to be, is it economically better to remain or leave?

At which point various reports from various economists are quoted, all of which seem to say, well up a bit or down a bit, a bit being in this sense a small %, and it depends on which side the Economist sits and assumptions made. All OK so far?

At which point somebody comes along and says, meh, economics all guessimetric, wtf do economists know anyway. Still with me on this?

Yet it's an observation that we repeatedly vote in people to run the country who studied, PPE at Oxford, so economists mainly.

Seems, you know, a bit odd.


Footnote.
Personally, not an Economist, but born and bred Yorkshire, so know how to look after money, not tight, just careful. hehe

Einion Yrth

19,575 posts

243 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
FiF said:
born and bred Yorkshire, so know how to look after money, not tight, just careful. hehe
Careful as a duck's arse you mean.


wink

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
I can't see how you have have a campaign on Brexit that does not cover immigration?

like it or not, it;s the single biggest issue out there, both in reality and in peoples perceptions.

to try and ignore it is just stupid, LibLabCon have tried that tack for the last 12+ years and look where we are now:

1) overcrowded country with insufficient housing leading to another house price fueled financial crisis
2) overloaded schools
3) massively overloaded NHS
4) massively overloaded welfare state

and that's just the obvious ones.





FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Einion Yrth said:
FiF said:
born and bred Yorkshire, so know how to look after money, not tight, just careful. hehe
Careful as a duck's arse you mean.


wink





wink

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Must admit I (perhaps naively and over optimistically) had hoped the EU would work fairly for all the countries in it, including the UK, and also recognize that with the way it is being run currently, which is clearly so wrong, and corrupt, they would recognize this, and take the necessary steps to correct its many faults.
But as recent events (not to mention its history) have shown this is not going to be the case, and from the response of other EU members (even to the weak requests from Camoron for reform) they are not going to clean up their act, and make the reforms that would allow me to vote for the UK`s continued membership.
The price of their unwillingness to reform, could be the UK`s exit from the club, taking with it, its second largest net contributor into EU coffers, and one of its biggest markets for selling goods `into' a member state.
Not sure if they are just stupid, don't believe the UK will actually vote to leave, or believe they have a strategy which will ensure we remain, regardless of what the UK public votes for. Interesting times lay ahead.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Einion Yrth said:
FiF said:
born and bred Yorkshire, so know how to look after money, not tight, just careful. hehe
Careful as a duck's arse you mean.


wink
hehe

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Friday 12th February 2016
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
I can't see how you have have a campaign on Brexit that does not cover immigration?

like it or not, it;s the single biggest issue out there, both in reality and in peoples perceptions.

to try and ignore it is just stupid, LibLabCon have tried that tack for the last 12+ years and look where we are now:

1) overcrowded country with insufficient housing leading to another house price fueled financial crisis
2) overloaded schools
3) massively overloaded NHS
4) massively overloaded welfare state

and that's just the obvious ones.
So an annual increase in population of 0.28% is the single biggest issue in the EU debate?

Which has lead, according to you, to a housing shortage, overloaded schools, an overloaded NHS, the overloaded welfare system.

Of cause these problems might have happened because of, respectively, more people living alone (is there really a shortage I do not notice many people sleeping under bridges), the closing of too many schools as the population aged (you may notice few EU immigrants are children), the aging population (EU immigrants are generally below the UK average age so make less use of the NHS), the willing ness of one G Brown to throw large sums at the UK none working population in the vain hope of re-election.


Scuffers you almost make me change my mind and vote to stay.


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