The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
After posting on another thread about this, I am now supremely curious to gauge whether people think that, in the event the "outs" have it, that we'll get the same response the Irish did in 2008 with the Lisbon treaty (and a similar response to the French and Dutch for voting against the constitution in 05); Wrong answer, go away and do it again.
Would they dare?
Would they dare?
Otispunkmeyer said:
After posting on another thread about this, I am now supremely curious to gauge whether people think that, in the event the "outs" have it, that we'll get the same response the Irish did in 2008 with the Lisbon treaty (and a similar response to the French and Dutch for voting against the constitution in 05); Wrong answer, go away and do it again.
Would they dare?
Absolutely not.Would they dare?
If there is a Out vote, it means out. The government would need to negotiate the best deal they were able to in the circumstances you outlne.
wc98 said:
///ajd said:
don4l said:
///ajd said:
don4l said:
///ajd said:
Bill said:
don4l said:
Here is a quotation that I think we should all consider before we vote on June 23rd.
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”
Where's that from Don?“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”
http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/03/why-eu-supersta...
Let's pretend that I quoted it from the page that you linked to.
Tell us why you think that it is a misquote.
Here it is again - from your link :-
'Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation’
https://eufundedproeutroll.wordpress.com/2014/05/2...
I didn't.
Yet another fail on your part.
I copied it from the link that you posted. Therefore, it cannot be a misquote.
I cut and pasted your original quote.
I googled it, quickly confirmed it was a fake quote of Monnet.
You certainly implied you thought Monnet quoted it - and the ONLY place I got it was from you as you were using it to spread your fear about ever closer union.
Totally busted. Just man up and admit it.
this is apparently the origin of the quote.
"The following quote is often attributed to Jean Monnet; in fact it is a paraphrase of a characterization of Monnet's intentions by British Conservative Adrian Hilton:
"Europe's nations should be guided towards a super state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."[5]
Monnet is reported to have expressed somewhat similar sentiments, but without the notion of intentional deception, saying "Via money Europe could become political in five years" and "… the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would … the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal."[6]
please read the last sentence , this is directly attributed to monnet and amounts to the same outlook in the quote don4l posted. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Jean_Mon...
don4l said:
Here is a quotation that I think we should all consider before we vote on June 23rd.
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”
Where's that from Don?
Don4l said:
It's usually attributed to Jean Monnet, who is considered to be one of the founding fathers of the EU. It is worth doing a bit of Googling on him.
A basic google reveals he didn't say the alledged quote at all. Some old school brexiteer of yesteryear implied he said it to spin the whole thing. "Paraphrase of a characterisation" - spin doesn't get much more tenuous than that - unless you have your blinkers on of course.Otispunkmeyer said:
After posting on another thread about this, I am now supremely curious to gauge whether people think that, in the event the "outs" have it, that we'll get the same response the Irish did in 2008 with the Lisbon treaty (and a similar response to the French and Dutch for voting against the constitution in 05); Wrong answer, go away and do it again.
Would they dare?
There will be a bit of negotiation, they'll offer us a new deal, we'll vote again in 12 months on supposedly new terms.Would they dare?
Otispunkmeyer said:
After posting on another thread about this, I am now supremely curious to gauge whether people think that, in the event the "outs" have it, that we'll get the same response the Irish did in 2008 with the Lisbon treaty (and a similar response to the French and Dutch for voting against the constitution in 05); Wrong answer, go away and do it again.
Would they dare?
No, they'll just all go home and give up. Would they dare?
Mrr T said:
I am basing my assumptions on an estimate that over 2M in the UK work in financial services.
The main areas I believe would be impacted by lose of EU passporting would be:
Sales to EU customers of wholesale banking services, money market, FX, derivatives, etc. Not so many jobs but tend to be well paid but many back office jobs.
Structuring, bonds, equity issuance, and loan arrangement for EU customers. Again a few job but well paid but many back office jobs.
Custody services, all the main custody banks service their EU customers from the UK. Lots of operational and processing jobs at risk.
Fund management most are in the UK and manage funds based in the EU. Not so many jobs but tend to be well paid but many back office jobs.
Rating agencies are all based in the UK.
Its not just the direct jobs but indirect such as compliance, risk, internal audit. They will follow.
I agree that middle and back office jobs would be hit in all likelihood, assuming the sector couldn't adapt (which I actually think it could).The main areas I believe would be impacted by lose of EU passporting would be:
Sales to EU customers of wholesale banking services, money market, FX, derivatives, etc. Not so many jobs but tend to be well paid but many back office jobs.
Structuring, bonds, equity issuance, and loan arrangement for EU customers. Again a few job but well paid but many back office jobs.
Custody services, all the main custody banks service their EU customers from the UK. Lots of operational and processing jobs at risk.
Fund management most are in the UK and manage funds based in the EU. Not so many jobs but tend to be well paid but many back office jobs.
Rating agencies are all based in the UK.
Its not just the direct jobs but indirect such as compliance, risk, internal audit. They will follow.
Trouble is, middle and back office jobs are already going out of the UK, despite us being in the EU, in the ongoing quest for lower costs. So remaining in offers no protection.
Whether the situation will get markedly worse if we left is hard to say. I'm not so sure. Being out of the EU may present fresh opportunities - the finance sector is very resourceful generally, and always looking for an opportunity (regulatory arbitrage anyone
). Change is generally good for the sector IMO.EddieSteadyGo said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
After posting on another thread about this, I am now supremely curious to gauge whether people think that, in the event the "outs" have it, that we'll get the same response the Irish did in 2008 with the Lisbon treaty (and a similar response to the French and Dutch for voting against the constitution in 05); Wrong answer, go away and do it again.
Would they dare?
Absolutely not.Would they dare?
If there is a Out vote, it means out. The government would need to negotiate the best deal they were able to in the circumstances you outlne.
Would we negotiate to stuff the single market access to give the anti-immigration crowd their promises on ditching four freedoms?
Or do we go for a bit of norway - which is technically outside the EU (so brexit), and less risky for our GDP but leaves us unchanged on immigration and still paying a shedload.
Tough one as probably 75%? of brexiteers seem obsessed by immigration, thats the drum that is being banged, and perhaps that what they expect.
Maybe another referendum would be required to work out if the eventual brexit plan was what people actually were voting for!
///ajd said:
It would be quite a dilemma.
Would we negotiate to stuff the single market access to give the anti-immigration crowd their promises on ditching four freedoms?
Or do we go for a bit of norway - which is technically outside the EU (so brexit), and less risky for our GDP but leaves us unchanged on immigration and still paying a shedload.
Tough one as probably 75%? of brexiteers seem obsessed by immigration, thats the drum that is being banged, and perhaps that what they expect.
Maybe another referendum would be required to work out if the eventual brexit plan was what people actually were voting for!
/sighWould we negotiate to stuff the single market access to give the anti-immigration crowd their promises on ditching four freedoms?
Or do we go for a bit of norway - which is technically outside the EU (so brexit), and less risky for our GDP but leaves us unchanged on immigration and still paying a shedload.
Tough one as probably 75%? of brexiteers seem obsessed by immigration, thats the drum that is being banged, and perhaps that what they expect.
Maybe another referendum would be required to work out if the eventual brexit plan was what people actually were voting for!
I really have tried to avoid rising to some pretty epic trolling but I can't let this stand.
Time and time you throw in immigration. It really doesn't count as a key issue for brexiters. It may well influence the undecided in the same way the economy may, but it shouldn't have escaped your attention that almost no one in the leave camp on this thread hardly ever mentions it. Apart from you.
The notes in the latest yougov poll make this clear (page 4).
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uplo...
For most of us the EEA solution which you iteratively ignore is a perfectly acceptable low risk first step.
I have no idea why I'm bothering responding as you pay no attention to repeated statements of this ilk, instead moving swiftly on to Squirrels and whatever your topic du jour is with don.
jurbie said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
After posting on another thread about this, I am now supremely curious to gauge whether people think that, in the event the "outs" have it, that we'll get the same response the Irish did in 2008 with the Lisbon treaty (and a similar response to the French and Dutch for voting against the constitution in 05); Wrong answer, go away and do it again.
Would they dare?
There will be a bit of negotiation, they'll offer us a new deal, we'll vote again in 12 months on supposedly new terms.Would they dare?
I'm doubtful our leaders will let us truly leave quite so readily as a simple referendum. Key will be how well they can disguise a non-exit.
JawKnee said:
What products? Let's be honest we don't make a great deal do we? And being outside the EU raises the risk of them slapping on import tariffs if tof protect their own manufacturers if we start selling too much to them.
I work in the motorsport industry. We are the best in the world in this industry sector and export worldwide many billions £ worth of goods and services. Ridgemont said:
///ajd said:
It would be quite a dilemma.
Would we negotiate to stuff the single market access to give the anti-immigration crowd their promises on ditching four freedoms?
Or do we go for a bit of norway - which is technically outside the EU (so brexit), and less risky for our GDP but leaves us unchanged on immigration and still paying a shedload.
Tough one as probably 75%? of brexiteers seem obsessed by immigration, thats the drum that is being banged, and perhaps that what they expect.
Maybe another referendum would be required to work out if the eventual brexit plan was what people actually were voting for!
/sighWould we negotiate to stuff the single market access to give the anti-immigration crowd their promises on ditching four freedoms?
Or do we go for a bit of norway - which is technically outside the EU (so brexit), and less risky for our GDP but leaves us unchanged on immigration and still paying a shedload.
Tough one as probably 75%? of brexiteers seem obsessed by immigration, thats the drum that is being banged, and perhaps that what they expect.
Maybe another referendum would be required to work out if the eventual brexit plan was what people actually were voting for!
I really have tried to avoid rising to some pretty epic trolling but I can't let this stand.
Time and time you throw in immigration. It really doesn't count as a key issue for brexiters. It may well influence the undecided in the same way the economy may, but it shouldn't have escaped your attention that almost no one in the leave camp on this thread hardly ever mentions it. Apart from you.
The notes in the latest yougov poll make this clear (page 4).
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uplo...
For most of us the EEA solution which you iteratively ignore is a perfectly acceptable low risk first step.
I have no idea why I'm bothering responding as you pay no attention to repeated statements of this ilk, instead moving swiftly on to Squirrels and whatever your topic du jour is with don.
You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
pkrplyr said:
Immigration does not count as an issue for brexitors?
You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
Well, getting control of our borders and the ability to control immigration is a big factor for most brexiters. And a lot of people too scared to vote out.You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
s2art said:
pkrplyr said:
Immigration does not count as an issue for brexitors?
You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
Well, getting control of our borders and the ability to control immigration is a big factor for most brexiters. And a lot of people too scared to vote out.You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
I don't understand what you you mean by ' too scared to vote out' can you elaborate on that please?
pkrplyr said:
Immigration does not count as an issue for brexitors?
You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
It's an issue. But not the preeminent. Read the link poll results I posted earlier. A bigger issue is for example national independence. And whether or not it resonates, my point was that ajd consistently returns to it despite the vast majority of posters on this thread stating it is not a key issue. You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
Fundamentally there is a complete phoney war going on. The EEA solution as advocated by large numbers of brexiteers is not being properly discussed. For the leave camp the reason is that they know to attract the undecided they need to avoid referring to the fact that the EEA option necessitates keeping freedom of movement in place. For the remain camp they don't want to go near it because it shoots the economic fear argument they are so keen on.
But as the yougov poll makes clear, immigration is an issue but not paramount. And certainly does not exercise core brexiteers ahead of more fundamental issues such as sovereignty.
Ridgemont said:
pkrplyr said:
Immigration does not count as an issue for brexitors?
You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
It's an issue. But not the preeminent. Read the link poll results I posted earlier. A bigger issue is for example national independence. And whether or not it resonates, my point was that ajd consistently returns to it despite the vast majority of posters on this thread stating it is not a key issue. You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
Fundamentally there is a complete phoney war going on. The EEA solution as advocated by large numbers of brexiteers is not being properly discussed. For the leave camp the reason is that they know to attract the undecided they need to avoid referring to the fact that the EEA option necessitates keeping freedom of movement in place. For the remain camp they don't want to go near it because it shoots the economic fear argument they are so keen on.
But as the yougov poll makes clear, immigration is an issue but not paramount. And certainlyp does not exercise core brexiteers ahead of more fundamental issues such as sovereignty.
sure a larger population puts strain on public services, though I believe that the economy is stronger as a result of migrant labour in all sectors and this outways any argument over the freedom of labour movement policy .
pkrplyr said:
s2art said:
pkrplyr said:
Immigration does not count as an issue for brexitors?
You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
Well, getting control of our borders and the ability to control immigration is a big factor for most brexiters. And a lot of people too scared to vote out.You are seriously detached from reality.
it may not be an issue to you but it is the main factor for the majority of the brexit voters.
I don't understand what you you mean by ' too scared to vote out' can you elaborate on that please?
pkrplyr said:
Those are valid points, though you initially said it did not count as an issue. I disagree with that as I feel that it is the overiding factor and which would potentially garner many votes. Clearly the leave campaign know this and it would make political sense to appeal to that. In my view the valid arguments for leave are not centred around immigration.
sure a larger population puts strain on public services, though I believe that the economy is stronger as a result of migrant labour in all sectors and this outways any argument over the freedom of labour movement policy .
Not quite: I said it didn't count as a key issue for brexiteers. I agree that it may be key for the swing voters but my response to that is that economic security is probably more key with undecided. The issue is that the argument for EEA isn't simplistic and certain figures in the leave movement prefer simplistic sloganeering than making a complex but key pitch. But that is why we regard Farage as a liability.sure a larger population puts strain on public services, though I believe that the economy is stronger as a result of migrant labour in all sectors and this outways any argument over the freedom of labour movement policy .
I think the leave camp is seriously shooting itself in the foot in not addressing EEA and economic security, but as Farage has pointed out, not embracing a full throated immigration argument (much as I abhore it) is as bad. They are floundering in the middle. Unbelievably the latest poll puts leave a point ahead, but if the economic case was made for EEA I think leave would romp this.
Edited by Ridgemont on Saturday 30th April 01:18
Edited by Ridgemont on Saturday 30th April 01:19
Sway said:
f
k me, I've heard some gullible ste in my time, but to think the CS have done or got nothing is utter, complete bks. We've the most successful, longest established CS in the world - it didn't get that way through abject incompetence and laziness. Even if they've deemed there to be zero influence, there'll be a plan for what we will do to mitigate and adapt. Emergency measures, protocols, summits, the lot.
Anyone who truly believes the Government has called a ref with zero plan for what happens after, or that we have such a tardy, inept CS, should be hammering Downing Street and Whitehall for putting the whole future of the country in such a risky position. Anyone who thinks that on the 24th of June, if the result is Leave, that there'll be hundreds if not thousands of Sir Humphries sitting around saying 'f
k. What do we do now?' is an idiot. Note, I understand why the Government is saying this - because otherwise they'd be getting hammered for 'preparing to fail to win' in the populist press we have today. They'd be stupid to say 'we propose Remain but here's the detailed plan of what's happen if we Leave.'
Apologies if I've upset anyone with the post. Most should realise this is not my normal posting style. I'm just staggered at the naivety displayed in a few posts...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...
Edited by Alex on Saturday 30th April 04:54
maffski said:
don4l said:
"Unilaterally scrapping import tariffs".
You really are stark, staring mad if you think that anyone believes that that could happen
Utterly, utterly bonkers.
Project Fear has produced some nonsense, but this really takes the biscuit.
Whilst it's unlikely it would happen, it's the sensible thing to do.You really are stark, staring mad if you think that anyone believes that that could happen
Utterly, utterly bonkers.
Project Fear has produced some nonsense, but this really takes the biscuit.
For consumers imports represent things we want, they make our lives better otherwise we wouldn't bother importing them. So any tariff on imports harms your own citizens.
For businesses imports represent the best of the competition, which forces that nations companies to improve to remain competitive. Making your businesses more productive improves the deal consumers get, again making their lives better.
So, why wouldn't you want no import tariffs, if their only function is to protect the vested interest of a small subset of your citizenry, at a cost to everyone else?
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