The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
s2art said:
Taking back control of our fisheries, Controlling immigration, restoring democracy in the UK, free trade etc etc. How compelling a vision do you want?
That will take 3 years, maybe 5. What then? What does the UK of our children or grandchildren look like? What are we going to do about the banking question? Are we still going to intervene when we see something wrong in the world? Are we going to retreat into our shell and allow the world to wash over us? Will we promote the Anglosphere? what about the Commonwealth? There are many big questions that go far beyond what UKIP have said so far, and the reason those questions haven't been answered is that UKIP is a single issue party. Once you start discussing those with that group it will all fall apart.
The leave campaign need to be able to say to people "This is a vision for the country - this is where we are going to set our course", because that's what the remain campaign are able to do. It needs to be big, broad brushstrokes, because the vision has to be bigger, broader, and perhaps even grander than the EU itself.
s2art said:
Taking back control of our fisheries, Controlling immigration, restoring democracy in the UK, free trade etc etc. How compelling a vision do you want?
Of those, restoring democracy. What does it mean? What is EU membership prohibiting us from doing? What is the modern expression of a free Britain? davepoth said:
s2art said:
Taking back control of our fisheries, Controlling immigration, restoring democracy in the UK, free trade etc etc. How compelling a vision do you want?
That will take 3 years, maybe 5. What then? What does the UK of our children or grandchildren look like? What are we going to do about the banking question? Are we still going to intervene when we see something wrong in the world? Are we going to retreat into our shell and allow the world to wash over us? Will we promote the Anglosphere? what about the Commonwealth? There are many big questions that go far beyond what UKIP have said so far, and the reason those questions haven't been answered is that UKIP is a single issue party. Once you start discussing those with that group it will all fall apart.
The leave campaign need to be able to say to people "This is a vision for the country - this is where we are going to set our course", because that's what the remain campaign are able to do. It needs to be big, broad brushstrokes, because the vision has to be bigger, broader, and perhaps even grander than the EU itself.
For UKIPs position see http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_633_Remember-the-Comm...
So thats the commonwealth and Anglosphere vision, but UKIP or any of the outers dont stop there, FTAs with China and other nations outside the anglosphere, basically the world.
Which particular banking question are you referring to?
s2art said:
FFS we are in NATO and on the UN security council, amongst other things, we will be involved in global security issues. We are the lead nation, along with India, in the commonwealth. A grouping which will become more important as the developing nations in it become richer. India in particular.
For UKIPs position see http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_633_Remember-the-Comm...
So thats the commonwealth and Anglosphere vision, but UKIP or any of the outers dont stop there, FTAs with China and other nations outside the anglosphere, basically the world.
Which particular banking question are you referring to?
Still not looking far enough ahead. The Commonwealth isn't going to last long after QE2 passes, and our position in NATO and the UN is going to look ridiculous if we ever get to the point of actually having to do something. Look at the list of permanent Security Council members and we are the weakest nation there. And yes, I know France are there - they're the ones with a functioning aircraft carrier pummelling ISIS night and day.For UKIPs position see http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_633_Remember-the-Comm...
So thats the commonwealth and Anglosphere vision, but UKIP or any of the outers dont stop there, FTAs with China and other nations outside the anglosphere, basically the world.
Which particular banking question are you referring to?
FTAs are all well and good, but what are we going to sell to the people we make FTAs with? Are we going to continue to focus our economy on financial services and turn into a slightly grubbier version of Switzerland, taking money from anyone no questions asked?
What does the UK look like to you in 2070?
davepoth said:
s2art said:
FFS we are in NATO and on the UN security council, amongst other things, we will be involved in global security issues. We are the lead nation, along with India, in the commonwealth. A grouping which will become more important as the developing nations in it become richer. India in particular.
For UKIPs position see http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_633_Remember-the-Comm...
So thats the commonwealth and Anglosphere vision, but UKIP or any of the outers dont stop there, FTAs with China and other nations outside the anglosphere, basically the world.
Which particular banking question are you referring to?
Still not looking far enough ahead. The Commonwealth isn't going to last long after QE2 passes, and our position in NATO and the UN is going to look ridiculous if we ever get to the point of actually having to do something. Look at the list of permanent Security Council members and we are the weakest nation there. And yes, I know France are there - they're the ones with a functioning aircraft carrier pummelling ISIS night and day.For UKIPs position see http://www.ukipmeps.org/news_633_Remember-the-Comm...
So thats the commonwealth and Anglosphere vision, but UKIP or any of the outers dont stop there, FTAs with China and other nations outside the anglosphere, basically the world.
Which particular banking question are you referring to?
FTAs are all well and good, but what are we going to sell to the people we make FTAs with? Are we going to continue to focus our economy on financial services and turn into a slightly grubbier version of Switzerland, taking money from anyone no questions asked?
What does the UK look like to you in 2070?
We are not the weakest member of the security council, see http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-st...
Globally 5th strongest, and that doesnt include nuclear weapons. And we are shortly to upgrade our Naval capabilities with new carriers and an updated Trident system.
We will sell what we make, a huge proportion of that will be services.
I cant predict what the UK will be in 2070, no-one could. But out of the EU we will control our own destiny.
davepoth said:
s2art said:
I cant predict what the UK will be in 2070, no-one could. But out of the EU we will control our own destiny.
I'm not asking for a prediction, I'm asking what your vision for the UK will be in 2070. What would you like the UK to look like? s2art said:
More affluent, more of a global outlook, more influential globally, back in the space race with Skylon or its descendants, still one of the strongest countries in finance, biotech, software, aerospace and high end engineering. Still one of the strongest countries militarily in the world (after the hyperpowers). Still a beacon for liberty and the rule of law.
And that's precisely what's missing from all of the "leave" campaigning. davepoth said:
s2art said:
More affluent, more of a global outlook, more influential globally, back in the space race with Skylon or its descendants, still one of the strongest countries in finance, biotech, software, aerospace and high end engineering. Still one of the strongest countries militarily in the world (after the hyperpowers). Still a beacon for liberty and the rule of law.
And that's precisely what's missing from all of the "leave" campaigning. spaximus said:
davepoth said:
s2art said:
More affluent, more of a global outlook, more influential globally, back in the space race with Skylon or its descendants, still one of the strongest countries in finance, biotech, software, aerospace and high end engineering. Still one of the strongest countries militarily in the world (after the hyperpowers). Still a beacon for liberty and the rule of law.
And that's precisely what's missing from all of the "leave" campaigning. turbobloke said:
spaximus said:
davepoth said:
s2art said:
More affluent, more of a global outlook, more influential globally, back in the space race with Skylon or its descendants, still one of the strongest countries in finance, biotech, software, aerospace and high end engineering. Still one of the strongest countries militarily in the world (after the hyperpowers). Still a beacon for liberty and the rule of law.
And that's precisely what's missing from all of the "leave" campaigning. AJS- said:
s2art said:
Taking back control of our fisheries, Controlling immigration, restoring democracy in the UK, free trade etc etc. How compelling a vision do you want?
Of those, restoring democracy. What does it mean? What is EU membership prohibiting us from doing? What is the modern expression of a free Britain? for the Sociopathic libertarians it means turning the UK in a developing country or an analogue of the US as the US is increasingly not demonstrating the development pattern of a developed country ...
AJS- said:
s2art said:
Taking back control of our fisheries, Controlling immigration, restoring democracy in the UK, free trade etc etc. How compelling a vision do you want?
Of those, restoring democracy. What does it mean? What is EU membership prohibiting us from doing? What is the modern expression of a free Britain? Scuffers
I read it and it was all sensible stuff but not really redefining Britain as a nation, which I believe is what we ultimately need to do. Having that would make the question of being in the EU redundant.
Mph
I don't think there's any danger of Britain becoming the USA.
s2art
Yes, but as per davepoth's post it raises the question of what we would then do with it.
There is a feeling, not entirely without justification that UKIP's vision is going back to 1950. Something we can't do.
It's hard to define exactly what that should be but I'd like to see something more powerful and compelling. Something positive which will inspire people.
I read it and it was all sensible stuff but not really redefining Britain as a nation, which I believe is what we ultimately need to do. Having that would make the question of being in the EU redundant.
Mph
I don't think there's any danger of Britain becoming the USA.
s2art
Yes, but as per davepoth's post it raises the question of what we would then do with it.
There is a feeling, not entirely without justification that UKIP's vision is going back to 1950. Something we can't do.
It's hard to define exactly what that should be but I'd like to see something more powerful and compelling. Something positive which will inspire people.
AJS- said:
Scuffers
I read it and it was all sensible stuff but not really redefining Britain as a nation, which I believe is what we ultimately need to do. Having that would make the question of being in the EU redundant.
not sure I get what you're asking for/expecting here?I read it and it was all sensible stuff but not really redefining Britain as a nation, which I believe is what we ultimately need to do. Having that would make the question of being in the EU redundant.
are you after some kind of ideological roadmap?
Yes, I'm sure somebody could come up with a very nice/compelling one, but it would likely be pure fiction, can you imagine the feeding frenzy the press would have if somebody was to do that?
Way I see it, we already are in the top 3 most influential countries, we are at the front of technological development (although we have a bad habit of not supporting such work and end up giving it away to the US or the like), if we stopped having timid, short sighted governments that actually put the UK first, we could vastly improve this country's prospects and outlook, let alone our standing in the rest of the world.
As I see it the governments all have a short term view of most things. They go for the popular things instead of looking longer term.
The EU on the other hand has had a very long term plan as they are no in a short populace position. They are unelected hence they don't care.
The UK is great, but we can be just as good and probably better if we stand up against the EU.
My big fears are simple. If the vote says out, then we will have years of negotiation and possibly another referendum. If the vote is to stay in the EU will see that as a licence to do what they want without fear of one of the biggest contributor ever walking away.
The EU on the other hand has had a very long term plan as they are no in a short populace position. They are unelected hence they don't care.
The UK is great, but we can be just as good and probably better if we stand up against the EU.
My big fears are simple. If the vote says out, then we will have years of negotiation and possibly another referendum. If the vote is to stay in the EU will see that as a licence to do what they want without fear of one of the biggest contributor ever walking away.
AJS- said:
Scuffers
I read it and it was all sensible stuff but not really redefining Britain as a nation, which I believe is what we ultimately need to do. Having that would make the question of being in the EU redundant.
Mph
I don't think there's any danger of Britain becoming the USA.
s2art
Yes, but as per davepoth's post it raises the question of what we would then do with it.
There is a feeling, not entirely without justification that UKIP's vision is going back to 1950. Something we can't do.
It's hard to define exactly what that should be but I'd like to see something more powerful and compelling. Something positive which will inspire people.
A couple of things could help the Leave campaign but I appreciate not quite in the inspirational way you wish for.I read it and it was all sensible stuff but not really redefining Britain as a nation, which I believe is what we ultimately need to do. Having that would make the question of being in the EU redundant.
Mph
I don't think there's any danger of Britain becoming the USA.
s2art
Yes, but as per davepoth's post it raises the question of what we would then do with it.
There is a feeling, not entirely without justification that UKIP's vision is going back to 1950. Something we can't do.
It's hard to define exactly what that should be but I'd like to see something more powerful and compelling. Something positive which will inspire people.
Firstly to point out that to vote staying in a system that is run behind closed doors by a group of failed and mainly ex communist unelected commissioners making laws that are tick boxed by a puppet parliament is really the way the Communist system worked.
So by voting to remain you must be a Communist.
Secondly to say that if Britain votes to leave the Cameron wlll resign.
This should make most Scottish and Labour folk who hate him just vote to leave in order to remove him
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