The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
The remain campaign's events for the next 19 weeks....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...
steveT350C said:
The remain campaign's events for the next 19 weeks....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...
Not sure if it's a joke or not http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eurefer...
I'd like to see EU withdrawal as a catalyst for a greater national renewal. Something inspiring. Something that says this is the Britain we want. It's not just about tangible policies but values and ideology. A vision and a mission.
There are hints of it. Some are nationalistic, some are Thatcherite, some are old left. None really seems to have come to the fore as a reason to leave or a road map for after we do. It almost certainly won't just come from one person but from one person writing it down. My hope was it would evolve through the campaign into a
Completely agree about our timid and short sighted governments (of all colours) but I don't think simply knowing the negatives of the EU is enough in itself. To think long term and have the confidence to take difficult decisions you need an ideology and a vision.
There are hints of it. Some are nationalistic, some are Thatcherite, some are old left. None really seems to have come to the fore as a reason to leave or a road map for after we do. It almost certainly won't just come from one person but from one person writing it down. My hope was it would evolve through the campaign into a
Completely agree about our timid and short sighted governments (of all colours) but I don't think simply knowing the negatives of the EU is enough in itself. To think long term and have the confidence to take difficult decisions you need an ideology and a vision.
turbobloke said:
Mrr T: As for the fag packet I do have some issues with the calculations.
OK, my responses are in italics
1. Only 50% of the immigrants are from the EU so you are doubling the figures.
I agree that my number was a total but didn't claim otherwise, my reply was in rapid response mode and I read Scuffers' post and then your one-liner reply, there was no explicit mention of EU though of course I recognise the thread title and that it may have been implicit...the impact is what people see, whatever the source is, EU or not, and it was perception that was being discussed afaics
2. You have taken figures, which are a new high and assumed they will remain at that level.
Currently they have increased have they not - to a new record?
3. You have used 10 years worth of figures to calculate the required numbers of new primary schools. That makes no sense children are only at primary school for 5 years. So you have double counted.
Not so, Primary education takes place over 7 years from Reception to Y6 and no 4-11 Academy or Free School would open catering only for 5 or any other number of years, so the build is for R-Y6 at the time it's needed
4. With out immigration the UK school role would be falling so many of the places are already going to become available.
There have been no spare places in many urban 4-11 schools for a long time and the secondary phase is now starting to be hit hard
5. You assume EU immigration would fall to zero after an EU exit. This is not correct we would still have EU immigration but now if would show as students, work transfers, and various other categories.
I haven't assumed anything of the kind, I looked at net immigration impact only
6. You only count the cost. The evidence is EU immigration is cost positive so the net effect is positive.
Schools are needed when children arrive regardless of any payback claimed or otherwise, same goes for NHS treatment at the time of illness or injury
Sorry about the delay in replying busy few days.OK, my responses are in italics
1. Only 50% of the immigrants are from the EU so you are doubling the figures.
I agree that my number was a total but didn't claim otherwise, my reply was in rapid response mode and I read Scuffers' post and then your one-liner reply, there was no explicit mention of EU though of course I recognise the thread title and that it may have been implicit...the impact is what people see, whatever the source is, EU or not, and it was perception that was being discussed afaics
2. You have taken figures, which are a new high and assumed they will remain at that level.
Currently they have increased have they not - to a new record?
3. You have used 10 years worth of figures to calculate the required numbers of new primary schools. That makes no sense children are only at primary school for 5 years. So you have double counted.
Not so, Primary education takes place over 7 years from Reception to Y6 and no 4-11 Academy or Free School would open catering only for 5 or any other number of years, so the build is for R-Y6 at the time it's needed
4. With out immigration the UK school role would be falling so many of the places are already going to become available.
There have been no spare places in many urban 4-11 schools for a long time and the secondary phase is now starting to be hit hard
5. You assume EU immigration would fall to zero after an EU exit. This is not correct we would still have EU immigration but now if would show as students, work transfers, and various other categories.
I haven't assumed anything of the kind, I looked at net immigration impact only
6. You only count the cost. The evidence is EU immigration is cost positive so the net effect is positive.
Schools are needed when children arrive regardless of any payback claimed or otherwise, same goes for NHS treatment at the time of illness or injury
My comments.
1. NP. My response was to a poster who seems to believe a) Britex will end UK immigration and b) All immigrants are the same.
2. I agree its a guess. My own view is the new ascension countries combined with the down turn in much of Europe have caused a short term rise. If the EU economies pick up and the UK slows the number from the EU will fall. However, I believe the numbers from outside the EU will not change much.
3. Agreed but you should still use 7 years not 10.
4. I am sure there have been no spare places in good schools. But with falling birth rates suggest school places would be falling without immigration. So rather than building schools they are just filling up the spare places..
5. The way your comments are framed suggests you are looking at marginal costs not absolute. I would suggest if you are discussing this on this tread marginal would be better.
6. The evidence suggest few EU immigrants arrive with children. So you would have a number of years to collect taxes before needing to build new schools.
No need for any reply most of this is guess work so either of us could be right. I would say doing what I always called "my smell test" on forecasts I do not see lots of new school building taking place.
Please do not think I believe in free immigration I am just prepared to accept the free movement of Labour in the EU because its reciprocal.
AJS- said:
I'd like to see EU withdrawal as a catalyst for a greater national renewal. Something inspiring. Something that says this is the Britain we want. It's not just about tangible policies but values and ideology. A vision and a mission.
There are hints of it. Some are nationalistic, some are Thatcherite, some are old left. None really seems to have come to the fore as a reason to leave or a road map for after we do. It almost certainly won't just come from one person but from one person writing it down. My hope was it would evolve through the campaign into a
Completely agree about our timid and short sighted governments (of all colours) but I don't think simply knowing the negatives of the EU is enough in itself. To think long term and have the confidence to take difficult decisions you need an ideology and a vision.
The start must be to be in full control of your destiny and laws, and be able to remove those in power who do not perform in a way in which the majority of people wish.There are hints of it. Some are nationalistic, some are Thatcherite, some are old left. None really seems to have come to the fore as a reason to leave or a road map for after we do. It almost certainly won't just come from one person but from one person writing it down. My hope was it would evolve through the campaign into a
Completely agree about our timid and short sighted governments (of all colours) but I don't think simply knowing the negatives of the EU is enough in itself. To think long term and have the confidence to take difficult decisions you need an ideology and a vision.
It is called democracy and it is what my father, who spent hours in a Wellington Bomber in WW2, was fighting about and what his father lost his leg for in the filthy muddy trenches at Arras in WW1.
There must be lots of arguments in favour of being part of the Third Reich, or ruled by Stalin saying that we are stronger together, with strong a strong army and full employment (army and salt mines) It is however very strange that after the jubilation of the tearing down of the Berlin Wall and the break up of the USSR that we should want to create another mistake.
America is a different case and people went there to form a new nation, away from all the religious persecutions and Royal rule and they bonded eventually into one, but even then after an horrific civil war.
I will never forget going to a Wedding in Zimbabwe in 1981 and being taken by the Polish father into a little suburb of Harare where there were many refugees living whose families had escaped
the revolution of 1917.
I found myself drinking neat Vodka with a group of Lithuanians who were tearfully hoping to be returned to their homeland their royal family.
I had hardly heard of Lithuania at the time and had no idea where to find it on a map and I thought to myself what a sad bunch as this is never going to happen.
But happen it did and it just goes to show how strong nationalism is entrenched in the hearts of many and that you cannot force an ever closer political and monetary union on folk who are so diverse.
Trade is another matter.
Edited by Vanin on Monday 15th February 11:53
AJS- said:
I'd like to see EU withdrawal as a catalyst for a greater national renewal. Something inspiring. Something that says this is the Britain we want. It's not just about tangible policies but values and ideology. A vision and a mission.
Well said 
AJS for supreme leader!
I don't know what to make of the polls... a random poll of about 50 people in a rural leicestershire pub on Saturday night was 100% out! Hardly scientific I know but when even a bunch of farmers want out...
CMD is a chicken according to NF.
"Mr Cameron a "chicken" and said he was "scared of the truth"............."Nothing in this renegotiated package works for the British people, none of it will be enforceable, he is trying to sell the British people a pup and he is too scared of me being able to expose that,"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
"Mr Cameron a "chicken" and said he was "scared of the truth"............."Nothing in this renegotiated package works for the British people, none of it will be enforceable, he is trying to sell the British people a pup and he is too scared of me being able to expose that,"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...
fblm said:
mph1977 said:
for the Sociopathic libertarians it means turning the UK in a developing country or an analogue of the US as the US is increasingly not demonstrating the development pattern of a developed country ...
As pathetic strawmen go thats right up there. Well done.They also seek to dismantle the NHS and local authorities claiming inefficiencies and waste , never mind the waste of resources ofon those they consider 'unworthy'
They also enkoy claiming that 'Brussels' imposed Workplace legislation is reducing their ability to get fat while mistreating workers and minimising wages and working conditions ( see the whinges from the powerfully built over NMW, Annual Leave, pensions, equality act , Health and safety , enivronmental protection regs / legislation etc etc etc ) .
Edited by mph1977 on Monday 15th February 21:41
mph1977 said:
really given that the Modus Operandi of the Libertarian sociopath is to frantically Masturbate over the kind of rubbish Trump is spouting, seeking to dismantle the NHS and local authorities and claiming that 'Brussels' imposed Workplace legislation is reducing their ability to get fat while mistreating workers and minimising wages and working conditions ( see whinges over NMW, Annual Leave, pensions, equality act , Health and safety , enivronmental protection regs / legislation etc etc etc )
I usually quite like reading what you have to say.So could you possibly have another go here please, preferably using both English and punctuation?
mph1977 said:
fblm said:
mph1977 said:
for the Sociopathic libertarians it means turning the UK in a developing country or an analogue of the US as the US is increasingly not demonstrating the development pattern of a developed country ...
As pathetic strawmen go thats right up there. Well done.They also seek to dismantle the NHS and local authorities claiming inefficiencies and waste , never mind the waste of resources ofon those they consider 'unworthy'
They also enkoy claiming that 'Brussels' imposed Workplace legislation is reducing their ability to get fat while mistreating workers and minimising wages and working conditions ( see the whinges from the powerfully built over NMW, Annual Leave, pensions, equality act , Health and safety , enivronmental protection regs / legislation etc etc etc ) .
Edited by mph1977 on Monday 15th February 21:41
fblm said:
That's not much of an improvement but do you not think you might be conflating every opinion you disagree with from hundreds of people, into one non existent caricature and then applying it to all? You are. You've created this image in your head of everyone who disagrees with your opinions, it's absurd and it makes you sound like a complete pillock.
NP&E has seemingly become a single right wing entity though, any attempt to argue any point even slightly left of the UKIP current-thought results in attacks from all sides. This place has become a circle jerk of the same few posters dominating every thread with their multitude of links from obscure right wing sites to support their viewpoint and drowning out any viewpoint opposing them.Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
tangerine_sedge said:
NP&E has seemingly become a single right wing entity though, any attempt to argue any point even slightly left of the UKIP current-thought results in attacks from all sides. This place has become a circle jerk of the same few posters dominating every thread with their multitude of links from obscure right wing sites to support their viewpoint and drowning out any viewpoint opposing them.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
tangerine_sedge said:
NP&E has seemingly become a single right wing entity though, any attempt to argue any point even slightly left of the UKIP current-thought results in attacks from all sides. This place has become a circle jerk of the same few posters dominating every thread with their multitude of links from obscure right wing sites to support their viewpoint and drowning out any viewpoint opposing them.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
really?Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
I'm obviously a UKIP supporter (in terms of their aims) but do not consider myself right wing, having never voted tory in my life and not being a fan of Thatcher/Heath/etc.
that said, I am also not a left wing nut-job who would vote for anything painted red.
in reality, most of my voting life has been a case of the lesser evil, no party really covered my own views.
does that make me a far-right knee-jerking fascist then?
Scuffers said:
tangerine_sedge said:
NP&E has seemingly become a single right wing entity though, any attempt to argue any point even slightly left of the UKIP current-thought results in attacks from all sides. This place has become a circle jerk of the same few posters dominating every thread with their multitude of links from obscure right wing sites to support their viewpoint and drowning out any viewpoint opposing them.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
really?Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
I'm obviously a UKIP supporter (in terms of their aims) but do not consider myself right wing, having never voted tory in my life and not being a fan of Thatcher/Heath/etc.
that said, I am also not a left wing nut-job who would vote for anything painted red.
in reality, most of my voting life has been a case of the lesser evil, no party really covered my own views.
does that make me a far-right knee-jerking fascist then?
I've never voted UKIP either. Another wasted counter-example
powerstroke said:
tangerine_sedge said:
NP&E has seemingly become a single right wing entity though, any attempt to argue any point even slightly left of the UKIP current-thought results in attacks from all sides. This place has become a circle jerk of the same few posters dominating every thread with their multitude of links from obscure right wing sites to support their viewpoint and drowning out any viewpoint opposing them.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
The post says more about the poster's bias and sour grapes than demonstrating any informed comment to be taken semi seriously.
Just one example for most of this thread I have been arguing against the UKIP position as being more hindrance to the leave campaign than help.
FiF said:
powerstroke said:
tangerine_sedge said:
NP&E has seemingly become a single right wing entity though, any attempt to argue any point even slightly left of the UKIP current-thought results in attacks from all sides. This place has become a circle jerk of the same few posters dominating every thread with their multitude of links from obscure right wing sites to support their viewpoint and drowning out any viewpoint opposing them.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
Most lefties (i.e. anybody who didnt vote Sir Nige) have just given up and gone elsewhere, meaning that this place has become even more onanistic.
The post says more about the poster's bias and sour grapes than demonstrating any informed comment to be taken semi seriously.
FiF said:
Just one example for most of this thread I have been arguing against the UKIP position as being more hindrance to the leave campaign than help.
Yes very clearly so; there's none so blind as those that see red.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff