The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
FiF said:
When you look at the EU elections, besides all the eastern states that joined later, Austria is the one nation where Euroscepticism showed a reduction in their support. Daft suggestion imo.
States who might be encouraged are those where Euroscepticism has made gains and have suffered from the effects of unfettered migration, so Denmark and Sweden perhaps. 6th and 5th position in biggest net contributors.
I was picking up on Yabu's comment and link earlier.States who might be encouraged are those where Euroscepticism has made gains and have suffered from the effects of unfettered migration, so Denmark and Sweden perhaps. 6th and 5th position in biggest net contributors.
s2art said:
V8 Fettler said:
Data and information from the various protagonists, the beggars won't get my vote otherwise. The process should be stalled if the relevant data and information isn't available, would have to be bonkers to vote without being able to make an informed decision. Or just vote for the cheap tobacco and booze.
It's about time that an additional choice was available on ballot papers: None of the above.
You will get loads of 'data' from the various protagonists. A lot is available now if you take a look. The problem is that the 'data'; from both sides will be educated guesswork. For instance, once out, we will have the freedom to sign FTAs with China, India, the USA etc, but we dont know if that will take a few months or a couple of years, even though we know it will happen.It's about time that an additional choice was available on ballot papers: None of the above.
AJS- said:
And you want someone to spoon feed that to you? Plenty of "experts" ready to do just that. Search Google and you'll find plenty of studies and predictions. You'll still have to pick which ones to believe.
Spoon feed? Not at all. I want the protagonists to work for my vote. Would be foolish to believe any one study in its entirety, take a broad view from a range of studies to reach an informed decision.Must go, out and about on a fine English summer's day.
But you keep going on about accurate information and solid data as though there were some central authority who were writing the script for the future and witholding it in order to make it some sort of a guessing game.
There are plenty of predictions out there ranging from starting WW3 to peace, plenty and brotherly love. Whichever path we choose. They're all based on something but as outlined above nothing is very certain.
There are plenty of predictions out there ranging from starting WW3 to peace, plenty and brotherly love. Whichever path we choose. They're all based on something but as outlined above nothing is very certain.
The lack of a single, Or at least consistent message, "No" campaign will probably lose the referendum.
EU referendum website has another good article highlighting this aspect today:
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=8...
In it Dr North states that the way the "No" campaign is going prevents it from undertaking quality research to counter the FUD being put about. This article is in the context of motor carr production and how, contrary to Dr Norths initial views that a Brexit would be neutral for the British car industry, and the FUD spread by the Financial Times and a German chap Wissman, A Brexit would actually benefit our car industry by opening up the global supply chain which is apparently currently restricted by virtue of the fact we are in the EU.
Interesting.
EU referendum website has another good article highlighting this aspect today:
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=8...
In it Dr North states that the way the "No" campaign is going prevents it from undertaking quality research to counter the FUD being put about. This article is in the context of motor carr production and how, contrary to Dr Norths initial views that a Brexit would be neutral for the British car industry, and the FUD spread by the Financial Times and a German chap Wissman, A Brexit would actually benefit our car industry by opening up the global supply chain which is apparently currently restricted by virtue of the fact we are in the EU.
Interesting.
V8 Fettler said:
UK bickering and sniping isn't a problem to the Germans and the French, they probably view Nigel as an eccentric British gentleman. What will be a problem to the Germans and the French is if the UK leaves on reasonably favourable terms, thus encouraging others. Perhaps Austria?
How has the UK dragged the EU back? Net contributor and a big hitter; from France and Germany's position it's far better to have the UK as part of the EU rather than on the outside.
What does a good EU look like to you?How has the UK dragged the EU back? Net contributor and a big hitter; from France and Germany's position it's far better to have the UK as part of the EU rather than on the outside.
A good EU could be ditching everyone who is not committed to a political union, officially having common fiscal and political policy in most key areas, fiscal transfers from the strong areas who do well from the artificially low currency to the weak areas who suffer from an artificially strong currency. It's a United States of Europe, done properly to relieve the inherent tensions in the current setup where we have some halfway house.
That EU does not look attractive to some countries, so by letting or coercing them to stay they will slow and weaken the march towards the good version of the EU.
That's how the UK has dragged the EU back, not Nigel Farage's eccentric speeches, the fact that we're not committed to political union. As a big hitter we influence EU policy so that this doesn't happen as quickly or cleanly as needs to. Our contributions are relatively large in the current setup, but pale into insignificance compared to the eventual budget of a proper political union.
Cut loose the handful of members not committed to political union and have a successful EU 80% of the current size, or do everything you can to keep the EU at 100% size, but lose out on the political union that will make it successful.
AJS- said:
But you keep going on about accurate information and solid data as though there were some central authority who were writing the script for the future and witholding it in order to make it some sort of a guessing game.
There are plenty of predictions out there ranging from starting WW3 to peace, plenty and brotherly love. Whichever path we choose. They're all based on something but as outlined above nothing is very certain.
Where did you get that from? Have you confused this thread with a completely different thread on a completely different forum? There are plenty of predictions out there ranging from starting WW3 to peace, plenty and brotherly love. Whichever path we choose. They're all based on something but as outlined above nothing is very certain.
Once again:
Have I not mentioned the element of crystal ball gazing?
We need data and information from the various protagonists.
The various protagonists need to offer their views for evaluation and consideration.
There should be forecasts supported by data from all the interested parties.
There will be many guesses at this point.
grantone said:
V8 Fettler said:
UK bickering and sniping isn't a problem to the Germans and the French, they probably view Nigel as an eccentric British gentleman. What will be a problem to the Germans and the French is if the UK leaves on reasonably favourable terms, thus encouraging others. Perhaps Austria?
How has the UK dragged the EU back? Net contributor and a big hitter; from France and Germany's position it's far better to have the UK as part of the EU rather than on the outside.
What does a good EU look like to you?How has the UK dragged the EU back? Net contributor and a big hitter; from France and Germany's position it's far better to have the UK as part of the EU rather than on the outside.
A good EU could be ditching everyone who is not committed to a political union, officially having common fiscal and political policy in most key areas, fiscal transfers from the strong areas who do well from the artificially low currency to the weak areas who suffer from an artificially strong currency. It's a United States of Europe, done properly to relieve the inherent tensions in the current setup where we have some halfway house.
That EU does not look attractive to some countries, so by letting or coercing them to stay they will slow and weaken the march towards the good version of the EU.
That's how the UK has dragged the EU back, not Nigel Farage's eccentric speeches, the fact that we're not committed to political union. As a big hitter we influence EU policy so that this doesn't happen as quickly or cleanly as needs to. Our contributions are relatively large in the current setup, but pale into insignificance compared to the eventual budget of a proper political union.
Cut loose the handful of members not committed to political union and have a successful EU 80% of the current size, or do everything you can to keep the EU at 100% size, but lose out on the political union that will make it successful.
You've mentioned all those things, but you still seem to keep on insisting on projections and data when various people have explained that 1) there are many out there, and 2) none of them really amount to very much because they're based on so many unreliable assumptions. Then you say the vote should be called off unless we have such a thing.
Worth watching Greece in the coming weeks though, to see just how the European Union and it's institutions respond to a perceived slight by the electorate. Without wanting to open up the whole debate over Greece's predicament here (enough threads running already) I expect we will see a huge effort to bully, cajole and frighten the Greek people into accepting the same deal in more flowery language.
AJS- said:
Worth watching Greece in the coming weeks though, to see just how the European Union and it's institutions respond to a perceived slight by the electorate. Without wanting to open up the whole debate over Greece's predicament here (enough threads running already) I expect we will see a huge effort to bully, cajole and frighten the Greek people into accepting the same deal in more flowery language.
The problem seems less about the economics now, but more that the Greek government called the referendum, which the EU could not control or schedule another one, to get the EU sanctioned result. The UK should take a long hard look at the overt autocracy on display by the EU, the spiteful and crass vindictive nature of the organisation will be turned on us, if we dare attempt to leave.
AJS- said:
You've mentioned all those things, but you still seem to keep on insisting on projections and data when various people have explained that 1) there are many out there, and 2) none of them really amount to very much because they're based on so many unreliable assumptions. Then you say the vote should be called off unless we have such a thing.
Have we finished with the nonsense of your bizarre suggestion of a "central authority"?You're absolutely right with regards to requiring data and information before making an informed decision, why would you object to that?
If the protagonists cannot currently issue reasonably accurate data - or even data that's ballpark - then the protagonists need to get their collective fingers out.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
The problem seems less about the economics now, but more that the Greek government called the referendum, which the EU could not control or schedule another one, to get the EU sanctioned result.
The UK should take a long hard look at the overt autocracy on display by the EU, the spiteful and crass vindictive nature of the organisation will be turned on us, if we dare attempt to leave.
Hence the need to manage the process to ensure that risk of damage created by an "out" vote is minimised. Unfortunately, the whole issue will probably become dominated by the flailing emotionalists, led by the flouncing and posturing of politicos and the parasitic meeedjiiaa types.The UK should take a long hard look at the overt autocracy on display by the EU, the spiteful and crass vindictive nature of the organisation will be turned on us, if we dare attempt to leave.
V8 Fettler said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
The problem seems less about the economics now, but more that the Greek government called the referendum, which the EU could not control or schedule another one, to get the EU sanctioned result.
The UK should take a long hard look at the overt autocracy on display by the EU, the spiteful and crass vindictive nature of the organisation will be turned on us, if we dare attempt to leave.
Hence the need to manage the process to ensure that risk of damage created by an "out" vote is minimised. Unfortunately, the whole issue will probably become dominated by the flailing emotionalists, led by the flouncing and posturing of politicos and the parasitic meeedjiiaa types.The UK should take a long hard look at the overt autocracy on display by the EU, the spiteful and crass vindictive nature of the organisation will be turned on us, if we dare attempt to leave.
mph1977 said:
V8 Fettler said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
The problem seems less about the economics now, but more that the Greek government called the referendum, which the EU could not control or schedule another one, to get the EU sanctioned result.
The UK should take a long hard look at the overt autocracy on display by the EU, the spiteful and crass vindictive nature of the organisation will be turned on us, if we dare attempt to leave.
Hence the need to manage the process to ensure that risk of damage created by an "out" vote is minimised. Unfortunately, the whole issue will probably become dominated by the flailing emotionalists, led by the flouncing and posturing of politicos and the parasitic meeedjiiaa types.The UK should take a long hard look at the overt autocracy on display by the EU, the spiteful and crass vindictive nature of the organisation will be turned on us, if we dare attempt to leave.
Talk about flogging a dead horse.
Are they bending over backwards? Remember it is arguably the Euro and the systems to support is that has brought about this collapse when outside a simple slide in the Drachma would have gradually made this far less painful and probably corrected far sooner.
One way of reading the situation with Greece is that their biggest fear is Greece leaving the Euro and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.
One way of reading the situation with Greece is that their biggest fear is Greece leaving the Euro and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.
Timmy40 said:
AJS- said:
One way of reading the situation with Greece is that their biggest fear is Greece leaving the Euro and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.
+1 bang on the nail IMO. The sooner we leave the better.
Timmy40 said:
AJS- said:
One way of reading the situation with Greece is that their biggest fear is Greece leaving the Euro and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.
+1 bang on the nail IMO. The EU is making a stronger case for exit, than any "No" campaign ever could. The pseudo democratic pretence has been stripped away and the true nature of the beast is being exposed for all to see. Greece may just have done the UK a huge favour.
My concern is we are sending a europhile to negotiate in our name. Why bother? Cameron will never leave willingly, so our EU negotiating position is flawed from the outset. They say no to our demands or concede some minor points and Cameron will capitulate with a whimper and a press conference.
You do not get those plum EU jobs without towing the line.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 6th July 14:18
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