The 'No to the EU' campaign

[Ayahuasca]

The Eurocrats in Brussels would rather see Greece starving and in the EU, than prosperous and outside it.

[Beati Dogu]

grantone said:

What does a good EU look like to you?

The only good EU is a dead EU.

[FiF]

Just as a reminder, net contributors, not that many,






source all you need to know

[superlightr]

FiF said:

Just as a reminder, net contributors, not that many,






source all you need to know

lets leave the party now before everyone gets pissed & fight

[FiF]

superlightr said:

lets leave the party now before everyone gets pissed & fight.

There's only 9 making any noticeable net contributions out of 28, of those 9, only 5 of any note, 6 if you include Sweden.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

There's only 9 making any noticeable net contributions out of 28, of those 9, only 5 of any note, 6 if you include Sweden.

Redistribution of wealth on a continental scale.

[Ayahuasca]

Is the table simply cash in/cash out ? Not taking account of the other financial benefits of being in the EU? I am thinking specifically of mobile phone roaming charges.

[IainT]

swiveleyedgit said:

FiF said:

There's only 9 making any noticeable net contributions out of 28, of those 9, only 5 of any note, 6 if you include Sweden.

Redistribution of wealth on a continental scale.

Not drastically different than what happens here in the UK between cities and rural, north and south, etc.

When we look at our nation most accept that it's always likely that there will be this type of flow. It highlights that political union is the only footing that fiscal union can work on. When people drop arbitrary division, stop thinking 'me and mine' and start thinking 'us and ours'. The real issue with the EU is most of us find it impossible to think of it as an 'us' thing. The UK in particular has no deep connection. With the prevalence for self-serving technocrats in charge and a perception of unaccountability it'll never become an 'us' thing.

[zygalski]

AJS- said:

...and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.

To be fair though, the £ was massively over-valued when we joined the ERM & the economy was in a terrible state - high inflation, high interest rates.. the only way after the crash was up.
It's not like we were doing ok, joined the ERM, economy went tits up & then recovered as a result of leaving the ERM.

[mph1977]

Ayahuasca said:

Is the table simply cash in/cash out ? Not taking account of the other financial benefits of being in the EU? I am thinking specifically of mobile phone roaming charges.

As it;s being used to promote the out campaign

it will purely be the payments made to the EU vs the EU funds recieved back, completly ignoring the rest of the benefits of being in the EU

( see recent whinging aobut Customs charges on relatively low value items being personally imported from outside the EU - expect that on everything from overseas if we exit ... )

never mind , free movement, free trade, freedom to travel, europe wide deals on mobile roaming, E111/EHIC and so on ...

[BoRED S2upid]

FiF said:

Just as a reminder, net contributors, not that many,






source all you need to know

Poland! Cha-Ching!

[s2art]

zygalski said:

AJS- said:

...and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.

To be fair though, the £ was massively over-valued when we joined the ERM & the economy was in a terrible state - high inflation, high interest rates.. the only way after the crash was up.
It's not like we were doing ok, joined the ERM, economy went tits up & then recovered as a result of leaving the ERM.

Actually the economy was doing fine until towards the end of 1990. From Wiki

'Despite several major economies (primarily the United States and Germany) showing quarterly detraction during the latter part of 1989, the British economy continued to grow well into 1990, with the first quarterly detraction taking place in the third quarter of the year, by which time unemployment was starting to creep upwards again after four years of falling. The beginning of another recession was confirmed in January 1991'

What happened after we joined the ERM is that we had to maintain high interest rates to keep the pound in its range. Had interest rates been set appropriately for the UK economy and the pound been allowed to devalue a little, then the recession might well have been avoided and only a small downturn experienced.

So yeah, the economy was doing OK, we joined the ERM, and due to that we suffered a ludicrously high interest rate hike rather than let the markets decide the strength of sterling, which damaged the economy. Leaving the ERM was the medicine we needed. Remember Alan Walters and the 'half baked' ERM?

[zygalski]

s2art said:

zygalski said:

AJS- said:

...and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.

To be fair though, the £ was massively over-valued when we joined the ERM & the economy was in a terrible state - high inflation, high interest rates.. the only way after the crash was up.
It's not like we were doing ok, joined the ERM, economy went tits up & then recovered as a result of leaving the ERM.

Actually the economy was doing fine until towards the end of 1990. From Wiki

'Despite several major economies (primarily the United States and Germany) showing quarterly detraction during the latter part of 1989, the British economy continued to grow well into 1990, with the first quarterly detraction taking place in the third quarter of the year, by which time unemployment was starting to creep upwards again after four years of falling. The beginning of another recession was confirmed in January 1991'

What happened after we joined the ERM is that we had to maintain high interest rates to keep the pound in its range. Had interest rates been set appropriately for the UK economy and the pound been allowed to devalue a little, then the recession might well have been avoided and only a small downturn experienced.

So yeah, the economy was doing OK, we joined the ERM, and due to that we suffered a ludicrously high interest rate hike rather than let the markets decide the strength of sterling, which damaged the economy. Leaving the ERM was the medicine we needed. Remember Alan Walters and the 'half baked' ERM?

The UK economy was not in a good place in the late 1980's/early 1990's. We'd barely come out of recession & the economy was in an incredibly fragile state.
You have a very cloudy memory.

[AJS-]

zygalski said:

AJS- said:

...and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.

To be fair though, the £ was massively over-valued when we joined the ERM & the economy was in a terrible state - high inflation, high interest rates.. the only way after the crash was up.
It's not like we were doing ok, joined the ERM, economy went tits up & then recovered as a result of leaving the ERM.

Leaving the ERM is exactly why we recovered. There may be some sense in which being in helped keep inflation under control, but nothing that a sound monetary policy couldn't have done outside the ERM.

[AJS-]

It was going through a fairly normal cycle. By your own graphs look at how unemployment went up and up when our interest rates were held artificially high to maintain the value of Sterling. Look at how it recovered afterwards. And look at how the countries that stayed in the ERM lumbered on with high unemployment from then until now under managed exchange rates.

I'm pretty open minded about these but you'll have to have something fairly impressive if you're going to say leaving the ERM was a mistake...

[s2art]

zygalski said:

s2art said:

zygalski said:

AJS- said:

...and enjoying a boom, as we did when we left the ERM, which would encourage other countries to follow suit. Then their project falls apart.

To be fair though, the £ was massively over-valued when we joined the ERM & the economy was in a terrible state - high inflation, high interest rates.. the only way after the crash was up.
It's not like we were doing ok, joined the ERM, economy went tits up & then recovered as a result of leaving the ERM.

Actually the economy was doing fine until towards the end of 1990. From Wiki

'Despite several major economies (primarily the United States and Germany) showing quarterly detraction during the latter part of 1989, the British economy continued to grow well into 1990, with the first quarterly detraction taking place in the third quarter of the year, by which time unemployment was starting to creep upwards again after four years of falling. The beginning of another recession was confirmed in January 1991'

What happened after we joined the ERM is that we had to maintain high interest rates to keep the pound in its range. Had interest rates been set appropriately for the UK economy and the pound been allowed to devalue a little, then the recession might well have been avoided and only a small downturn experienced.

So yeah, the economy was doing OK, we joined the ERM, and due to that we suffered a ludicrously high interest rate hike rather than let the markets decide the strength of sterling, which damaged the economy. Leaving the ERM was the medicine we needed. Remember Alan Walters and the 'half baked' ERM?

The UK economy was not in a good place in the late 1980's/early 1990's. We'd barely come out of recession & the economy was in an incredibly fragile state.
You have a very cloudy memory.

Nope. The late 80's was the 'Lawson Boom' and things were looking good, but Lawson took his eye off the ball and tried to shadow the DM. Then inflation started taking off and interest rates rose causing a stronger pound, then we joined the ERM (once Thatcher, Walters and Lawson were gone) and the economy started going into reverse which should have necessitated an interest rate drop.But they needed to keep rates high to maintain the pound in its ERM range. And thats when everything fecked up, cue recession exit from ERM followed by salvation.

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/630/economics/ec...



Economic Growth and Lawson Boom

After recovering from 1981 recession, the UK experienced a long period of economic expansion. Towards the end of the 1980s, the growth rate reached record post-war levels (over 2% quarterly growth – equivalent to 8% 12 month growth).

[Scuffers]

considering this new report:


Greece news live: EU questions legality of referendum as Euclid Tsakalotos replaces Yanis Varoufakis after resignation


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11719...

who thinks the UK's referendum is going to be respected?

[Funkycoldribena]

Can we have some pie charts please? I'm bored of graphs.

[Beati Dogu]

Scuffers said:

who thinks the UK's referendum is going to be respected?

About as much as "no" would be respected by a rapist.

[s2art]

Scuffers said:

considering this new report:


Greece news live: EU questions legality of referendum as Euclid Tsakalotos replaces Yanis Varoufakis after resignation


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11719...

who thinks the UK's referendum is going to be respected?

Respected by whom? It only needs the respect of our politicians. The UK isnt Greece.