The 'No to the EU' campaign

[RYH64E]

What some people appear to be saying is that if we weren't members of the EU we could wash our hands of any humanitarian crisis wherever it happens in the world, as if we have no moral conscience of our own and have to be forced into doing something by other nations. I would like to think that our response as a country would be the same regardless of whether we are part of the EU or not, and that any support will given based upon the facts of the situation without reference to any third party.

And once again, for the hard of thinking, the problems in Syria, Eritrea, Libya, Afghanistan haven't been caused by the EU, nor our membership of it, nor the Euro...

[turbobloke]

RYH64E said:

What some people appear to be saying is that if we weren't members of the EU we could wash our hands of any humanitarian crisis wherever it happens in the world, as if we have no moral conscience of our own and have to be forced into doing something by other nations.

That appearance is most odd. I'd go so far as to suggest it's a synthetic caricature embodying a significant exaggeration; not really the case.

Outside the EU we would be immune to any EU viewpoint, EU strategy or EU diktat. In other words, a much better plave to be given that the EU has a less than impressive track record in...well, anything.

[AJS-]

RYH64E said:

I would like to think that our response as a country would be the same regardless of whether we are part of the EU or not, and that any support will given based upon the facts of the situation without reference to any third party.

You'd be wrong to think that, however much you would like to.

There is a European policy on asylum, the naval operation to assist illegal migrants crossing the Mediterranean is an EU operation of which we are a part, and as we already saw last week and I am sure will see again, even if we have a veto or total autonomy by the letter of the treaties Britain can come under significant pressure to take "it's fair share" of those entering the EU.

We are in the club and the club is taking in millions of migrants so the only discussion is whether we are pulling our weight as compared with other EU states. As an independent country the government would be answerable only to the people for immigration and asylum policy, and my feeling is that it would go in completely the other direction if in this case and put a lot more emphasis on discouraging migrants from making dangerous journeys. This might seem "unkind" but I believe it would ultimately lead to far less death, misery and dislocation than the current mess created by kindness.

[Esseesse]

AJS- said:

There are possibly treaty obligations to stop them doing this, I can't find anything very easily on Google but remember we are all now EU Citizens. British citizenship is a fairly meaningless subgroup, with little more actual consequence than putting an old style blue cover on your EU Passport. So I would be surprised if the EU doesn't lay down some criteria for the granting of EU citizenship.

However, Cyprus already basically sells EU citizenship for a donation of 500K Euros and an investment of 2m, so it would seem possible that some poorer or more desperate country could undercut them. You would hope they would have at least the basic administrative competence to stop this but nothing is certain.

Cynically I wonder if the current 'crisis' is desired by those in charge of the EU. It seems largely avoidable, they could have quite reasonably decided to turn back anyone attempting to cross the Mediterranean whilst at the same time had some programme to help genuine refugees directly (In fact doesn't this already exist? We certainly have always taken genuine refugees every year anyway)... Is this desired by the EU who may wish to create a larger, lower wage workforce in order to be able to compete more effectively with China and other emerging markets?

Also for a little while I have had a suspicion that the EU would like to increase it's influence (expand) in North Africa, is this massive migration from there a foot in the door? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_the_Medite...

[AJS-]

Esseesse said:

Cynically I wonder if the current 'crisis' is desired by those in charge of the EU. It seems largely avoidable, they could have quite reasonably decided to turn back anyone attempting to cross the Mediterranean whilst at the same time had some programme to help genuine refugees directly (In fact doesn't this already exist? We certainly have always taken genuine refugees every year anyway)... Is this desired by the EU who may wish to create a larger, lower wage workforce in order to be able to compete more effectively with China and other emerging markets?

Also for a little while I have had a suspicion that the EU would like to increase it's influence (expand) in North Africa, is this massive migration from there a foot in the door? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_the_Medite...

You do wonder. At the very least it's a great platform for a "co-ordinated" asylum and immigration policy, a European foreign policy to prevent this happening again and a European defence force.

[RYH64E]

AJS- said:

There is a European policy on asylum, the naval operation to assist illegal migrants crossing the Mediterranean is an EU operation of which we are a part, and as we already saw last week and I am sure will see again, even if we have a veto or total autonomy by the letter of the treaties Britain can come under significant pressure to take "it's fair share" of those entering the EU.

I'm not sure that there's a 'naval operation to assist illegal migrants crossing the Mediterranean' as such, rather an operation to rescue those unfortunates in danger of drowning when their overloaded boats sink. Like many things in life, it's a difficult balance to get right and it's easy to blame those who have to decide what to do. No-one wants to see women and children drowning, yet patrolling offshore most likely makes the perceived risk of the trip lower and hence might encourage more people to make the journey. You seem to be in favour of a 'let them drown, it's not our problem' approach, which I personally would find more distasteful than a more humanitarian approach.

As for pressure to take a 'fair share' of migrants, it's not often one sees the word 'fair' used as a pejorative term.

[Esseesse]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Give me a break, the idea has been mooted more than once by UK cabinet members and others in the EU. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7095657.stm

[AJS-]

They could have had a clear policy of turning them back to North Africa. They could have had some plan for what to do with illegal migrants once they arrive, or had a processing centre near where they land which could have assessed asylum claims for each EU country and then acted accordingly. It appears they've done none of that - just landed them in Sicily and let them go on their way.

It's not the fairness itself that I have a problem with, it's the notion that fairness means doing the wrong thing to an equal extent. If you believe as I do that it's fundamentally wrong, including unkind and unfair to hold out this notion of a warm welcome and ongoing material support for an unlimited number of migrants once they get to the EU you are actively encouraging them to make these dangerous journeys and take these mortal risks even from the safety of countries like Turkey where they currently are. No amount of taking our share will make this policy good, kind or fair.

[JagLover]

Murph7355 said:

People wanting to leave st hole countries is not the EU's fault. But the way the EU is set up, what happens to them once they leave their home countries and enter EU space very much is. The lack of a strategy to deal with this scenario (as someone else already mentioned) is surely a big red flag - it's one of the very things that should be in place if a construct like the EU is to have any value. And we have nothing...

Added to which people are getting fed up with Britain being informed it needs to take its "share" of Migrants if we want any meaningful reform when we are already the largest contributor in Europe to the camps around Syria.

[paulrockliffe]

Interesting comments from top bod at Vauxhall on R4 this morning just after 7; happy for there to be a referendum as it's what the public want, the outcome will have no bearing on Vauxhall in the UK or any future investment in the UK as leaving the EU wouldn't have a drastic effect on the industry. A trade agreement with the EU is inevitable.

[turbobloke]

paulrockliffe said:

Interesting comments from top bod at Vauxhall on R4 this morning just after 7; happy for there to be a referendum as it's what the public want, the outcome will have no bearing on Vauxhall in the UK or any future investment in the UK as leaving the EU wouldn't have a drastic effect on the industry. A trade agreement with the EU is inevitable.

Sensible stuff, more of this from industrialists is a good thing.

[esxste]

So.. how are the No to EU people liking Corbyns generally anti-EU views? Of All the Party leaders now, he's perhaps the most likely to lead Britain out of Europe.

[Einion Yrth]

esxste said:

So.. how are the No to EU people liking Corbyns generally anti-EU views? Of All the Party leaders now, he's perhaps the most likely to lead Britain out of Europe.

He's not very likely to lead anyone anywhere.

[turbobloke]

Einion Yrth said:

esxste said:

So.. how are the No to EU people liking Corbyns generally anti-EU views? Of All the Party leaders now, he's perhaps the most likely to lead Britain out of Europe.

He's not very likely to lead anyone anywhere.

Thank goodness.

And if he ever did, living and working in the UK may well be more of a problem.

[Esseesse]

esxste said:

So.. how are the No to EU people liking Corbyns generally anti-EU views? Of All the Party leaders now, he's perhaps the most likely to lead Britain out of Europe.

If he ran a GE campaign with a pledge to leave the EU I would certainly vote for him. I think UKIP would give way and support such a campaign too.

[superlightr]

Esseesse said:

If he ran a GE campaign with a pledge to leave the EU I would certainly vote for him. I think UKIP would give way and support such a campaign too.

I too want to be out of the EU but there is not way I would vote for Him. It would have the same condition as like voting to leave the EU provided I stuck a pencil in my left eye.

Sure I want to leave the EU but quite like my left eye as well.

[Esseesse]

superlightr said:

Esseesse said:

If he ran a GE campaign with a pledge to leave the EU I would certainly vote for him. I think UKIP would give way and support such a campaign too.

I too want to be out of the EU but there is not way I would vote for Him. It would have the same condition as like voting to leave the EU provided I stuck a pencil in my left eye.

Sure I want to leave the EU but quite like my left eye as well.

Your eyes are being poked out currently anyway. He wouldn't be in government forever...

I suppose it's possible that if he campaigned for withdrawal the Tories might end up feeling they have to match him anyway...

[steveT350C]

turbobloke said:

paulrockliffe said:

Interesting comments from top bod at Vauxhall on R4 this morning just after 7; happy for there to be a referendum as it's what the public want, the outcome will have no bearing on Vauxhall in the UK or any future investment in the UK as leaving the EU wouldn't have a drastic effect on the industry. A trade agreement with the EU is inevitable.

Sensible stuff, more of this from industrialists is a good thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11866869/Ignore-the-scaremongers-manufacturing-powerhouse-Vauxhall-says-it-would-be-fine-outside-the-EU.html

[mph1977]

steveT350C said:

turbobloke said:

paulrockliffe said:

Interesting comments from top bod at Vauxhall on R4 this morning just after 7; happy for there to be a referendum as it's what the public want, the outcome will have no bearing on Vauxhall in the UK or any future investment in the UK as leaving the EU wouldn't have a drastic effect on the industry. A trade agreement with the EU is inevitable.

Sensible stuff, more of this from industrialists is a good thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11866869/Ignore-the-scaremongers-manufacturing-powerhouse-Vauxhall-says-it-would-be-fine-outside-the-EU.html

the question however is would GM Europe and GM worldwide see it that way ... neither vauxhall or IBC have unique products.

[turbobloke]

mph1977 said:

steveT350C said:

turbobloke said:

paulrockliffe said:

Interesting comments from top bod at Vauxhall on R4 this morning just after 7; happy for there to be a referendum as it's what the public want, the outcome will have no bearing on Vauxhall in the UK or any future investment in the UK as leaving the EU wouldn't have a drastic effect on the industry. A trade agreement with the EU is inevitable.

Sensible stuff, more of this from industrialists is a good thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11866869/Ignore-the-scaremongers-manufacturing-powerhouse-Vauxhall-says-it-would-be-fine-outside-the-EU.html

the question however is would GM Europe and GM worldwide see it that way ... neither vauxhall or IBC have unique products.

From the article:

Mr Tozer said a British exit would not cause "trouble" for the company or its parent, General Motors, as he stressed that Vauxhall would continue to build its popular Astra model in Britain.