The 'No to the EU' campaign

[///ajd]

Jinx said:

///ajd said:

It was a reply to this gem:

"Well what if OUR farmers stopped supplying other countries , and only supplied the UK instead ? And we would stop importing other countries meat/dairy/veg?"

What would you call this?

Isolationism is not a bad fit : a policy of remaining apart from the affairs or interests of other groups, especially the political affairs of other countries.

These are the words of your fellow brexiters - take it up with them.

Why the only? Why would we stop imports of food we require (been many long years since the UK could be self sufficient for all food stuffs) ?
Where in wanting to out of the EU is the sudden requirement to "remain" apart? Are we withdrawing from NATO, the UN, G8 (well G7 until the Ukraine situation is sorted), The commonwealth, FIFA, UEFA or WTO? The strawman argument you seem to insist on is easy to pull apart - why don't you try your hand at the actual argument?

Good questions.

You'll have to ask the brexiter who I was quoting.

I certainly agree its a daft response to the equally daft Minford nonsense.

[don4l]

///ajd said:

don4l said:

///ajd said:

don4l said:

///ajd said:

Bill said:

don4l said:

Here is a quotation that I think we should all consider before we vote on June 23rd.

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”

Where's that from Don?

This suggests it is a misquote and misleading

http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/03/why-eu-supersta...

Misquote?

Let's pretend that I quoted it from the page that you linked to.

Tell us why you think that it is a misquote.

Here it is again - from your link :-
'Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation’

Its actually worse than a misquote. Looks like its a 2009 fabrication to influence another EU referendum, based on something he didn't really say in 1952. The actual record of what he said is quite different.

https://eufundedproeutroll.wordpress.com/2014/05/2...

You seem to be assuming that I quoted Jean Monnet.

I didn't.

Yet another fail on your part.

I copied it from the link that you posted. Therefore, it cannot be a misquote.

Oh dear Don. Another bad day.

I cut and pasted your original quote.

I googled it, quickly confirmed it was a fake quote of Monnet.

You certainly implied you thought Monnet quoted it - and the ONLY place I got it was from you as you were using it to spread your fear about ever closer union.

Totally busted. Just man up and admit it.

You are clearly trolling.

[Sway]

Well after you and a couple of brexiters misunderstood my posts earlier today, I wrote a lengthy expansion and focused hard on clarity - yet you've carried on debating with them and not the original source, me.

As my 'fair point' shows, one of the biggest strengths of the Remain campaign has been to present a perception of a unified vision. I would say there's a greater level of honesty and openness that each side of a binary choice has wide score for differing opinions when one side argues with itself.

I'm yet to see any Remainer who wishes to reform from within take issue with those who want a full federal europe, for example.

[s2art]

Sway said:

I'm yet to see any Remainer who wishes to reform from within take issue with those who want a full federal europe, for example.

Perhaps because the full federalists realise the reformers are deluded. Why argue with them, just take their votes and wait for full federalism in due course.

[Sway]

s2art said:

Sway said:

I'm yet to see any Remainer who wishes to reform from within take issue with those who want a full federal europe, for example.

Perhaps because the full federalists realise the reformers are deluded. Why argue with them, just take their votes and wait for full federalism in due course.

Agreed, which is why I put the two ends of the Remain spectrum the other way around!

[KrissKross]

///ajd said:

its a daft response to the daft nonsense.

[///ajd]

Sway said:

Well after you and a couple of brexiters misunderstood my posts earlier today, I wrote a lengthy expansion and focused hard on clarity - yet you've carried on debating with them and not the original source, me.

As my 'fair point' shows, one of the biggest strengths of the Remain campaign has been to present a perception of a unified vision. I would say there's a greater level of honesty and openness that each side of a binary choice has wide score for differing opinions when one side argues with itself.

I'm yet to see any Remainer who wishes to reform from within take issue with those who want a full federal europe, for example.

On your last point, I don't see it as a likely outcome anytime soon, infact ever. Full federalists are rare and do not feature in any major campaign, nor are they included in any manifesto of any major UK political party. No-one is clamouring for it so it doesn't need challenging. The only people really talking about it are brexiters, and even then its a scare stories, as above based on made up quotes that are easily debunked.

The same is not the case when the cheif economist if the official leave campaign is calling for WTO rules, accepting inequal tariffs and impacts on our car and food sectors.

I think I've gone on about the last point enough - serious brexiters must be a bit deflated about his remarks though, no?

[CrutyRammers]

JawKnee said:

CrutyRammers said:

Good. That will mean lots of countries with money to buy our products.

What products? Let's be honest we don't make a great deal do we? And being outside the EU raises the risk of them slapping on import tariffs if tof protect their own manufacturers if we start selling too much to them.

As you will have seen above, you are totally wrong on this. For some reason, those of a certain political bent have been keen to talk down Britain's manufacturing for years, leading to this "we don't make anything" rubbish. I suppose it suits your case to pretend we are weak, and need nanny EU to help us. But it's all lies I'm afraid.

[s2art]

///ajd said:

I think I've gone on about the last point enough - serious brexiters must be a bit deflated about his remarks though, no?

Not at all. He stated that we would be better off even with no trade deals. On the DP he also said this report was merely a benchmark. Nobody has said that the farmers and car producers will not get assistance of some sort to compensate.

[turbobloke]

s2art said:

///ajd said:

I think I've gone on about the last point enough - serious brexiters must be a bit deflated about his remarks though, no?

Not at all. He stated that we would be better off even with no trade deals. On the DP he also said this report was merely a benchmark. Nobody has said that the farmers and car producers will not get assistance of some sort to compensate.

And as a light-hearted brexiter that cheered me up even more

[Sway]

///ajd said:

Sway said:

Well after you and a couple of brexiters misunderstood my posts earlier today, I wrote a lengthy expansion and focused hard on clarity - yet you've carried on debating with them and not the original source, me.

As my 'fair point' shows, one of the biggest strengths of the Remain campaign has been to present a perception of a unified vision. I would say there's a greater level of honesty and openness that each side of a binary choice has wide score for differing opinions when one side argues with itself.

I'm yet to see any Remainer who wishes to reform from within take issue with those who want a full federal europe, for example.

On your last point, I don't see it as a likely outcome anytime soon, infact ever. Full federalists are rare and do not feature in any major campaign, nor are they included in any manifesto of any major UK political party. No-one is clamouring for it so it doesn't need challenging. The only people really talking about it are brexiters, and even then its a scare stories, as above based on made up quotes that are easily debunked.

The same is not the case when the cheif economist if the official leave campaign is calling for WTO rules, accepting inequal tariffs and impacts on our car and food sectors.

I think I've gone on about the last point enough - serious brexiters must be a bit deflated about his remarks though, no?

I don't know if I'm a 'serious brexiter', but the post I referred you to (it's quite long and should stand out due to the use of bold) shows why even though I would prefer the Norths' flexcit proposal, Minford's holds no fear for me beyond the unnecessarily short timeframe to withdraw from a union that comprises a few decades worth of entanglement.

Of course, feel free to pick apart my rationale...

[Zod]

///ajd said:

don4l said:

///ajd said:

don4l said:

///ajd said:

The discussion that started this was about Minford - and he was not advocating any tariff on EU/German car imports to UK, just accepting a tariff on UK exports to the EU.

I cannot believe that anyone would suggest that Europe would impose tariffs on UK exports while, at the same time the UK would allow tariff free imports.

That is an utterly ridiculous suggestion.

Really!

I cannot believe that you actually typed that.

Yes, I can't believe I had to type it.

Take it up with the key official leave economist!

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0XP15O...

"By leaving the EU and unilaterally scrapping tariffs on imports of food and manufactured goods, Britain would be able to reduce average prices by 8 percent, he said.

Farmers, as well as car manufacturers, would suffer from lower exports to the EU, Minford said." .....as he accepts we would default to WTO EU tariffs.

Barking mad.

At least its good to see some brexiters finally recognise the importance of free trade and the potentially damaging effects of tariffs.

"Unilaterally scrapping import tariffs".

You really are stark, staring mad if you think that anyone believes that that could happen

Utterly, utterly bonkers.

Project Fear has produced some nonsense, but this really takes the biscuit.

Nothing to do with Project Fear, these are the words of

Minford - official brexit economist (and presumably acute embarrassment to many)

"By leaving the EU and unilaterally scrapping tariffs on imports of food and manufactured goods, Britain would be able to reduce average prices by 8 percent, he (Minford) said.

Farmers, as well as car manufacturers, would suffer from lower exports to the EU, Minford said." .....as he accepts we would default to WTO EU tariffs.

Minford is stuck in the early 80s. He's sticking to pushing his Liverpool model that he's been trying to sell since the 80s. He assumes perfect competition in a world without tariffs.

[KrissKross]

Zod said:

Minford is stuck in the early 80s. He's sticking to pushing his Liverpool model that he's been trying to sell since the 80s. He assumes perfect competition in a world without tariffs.

How about these chaps, also wrong?

https://youtu.be/_c8jznwzVbE

[don4l]

Sway said:

Well after you and a couple of brexiters misunderstood my posts earlier today, I wrote a lengthy expansion and focused hard on clarity - yet you've carried on debating with them and not the original source, me.

As my 'fair point' shows, one of the biggest strengths of the Remain campaign has been to present a perception of a unified vision. I would say there's a greater level of honesty and openness that each side of a binary choice has wide score for differing opinions when one side argues with itself.

I'm yet to see any Remainer who wishes to reform from within take issue with those who want a full federal europe, for example.

I don't usually read long posts, so I missed it this morning.

Having read your post, I agree with what you have written.

I don't really care about what Minford thinks as my favoured outcome is a quick exit and rejoin the WTO.

I don't see any security issues, in fact I think that security would be improved.

I don't see any trade issues either.

[///ajd]

Sway said:

///ajd said:

Sway said:

Well after you and a couple of brexiters misunderstood my posts earlier today, I wrote a lengthy expansion and focused hard on clarity - yet you've carried on debating with them and not the original source, me.

As my 'fair point' shows, one of the biggest strengths of the Remain campaign has been to present a perception of a unified vision. I would say there's a greater level of honesty and openness that each side of a binary choice has wide score for differing opinions when one side argues with itself.

I'm yet to see any Remainer who wishes to reform from within take issue with those who want a full federal europe, for example.

On your last point, I don't see it as a likely outcome anytime soon, infact ever. Full federalists are rare and do not feature in any major campaign, nor are they included in any manifesto of any major UK political party. No-one is clamouring for it so it doesn't need challenging. The only people really talking about it are brexiters, and even then its a scare stories, as above based on made up quotes that are easily debunked.

The same is not the case when the cheif economist if the official leave campaign is calling for WTO rules, accepting inequal tariffs and impacts on our car and food sectors.

I think I've gone on about the last point enough - serious brexiters must be a bit deflated about his remarks though, no?

I don't know if I'm a 'serious brexiter', but the post I referred you to (it's quite long and should stand out due to the use of bold) shows why even though I would prefer the Norths' flexcit proposal, Minford's holds no fear for me beyond the unnecessarily short timeframe to withdraw from a union that comprises a few decades worth of entanglement.

Of course, feel free to pick apart my rationale...

So you think his idea to tolerate unequal trade tariffs is ok, and to let food and car manufacture suffer?

[Sway]

Is that what I said, or did I say I welcome the drive to improve and outcompete?

Then everyone benefits - the company, it's customers, and it's shareholders.

10% is a doddle, if the drive is there. Tariffs prevent that drive...

[///ajd]

s2art said:

///ajd said:

I think I've gone on about the last point enough - serious brexiters must be a bit deflated about his remarks though, no?

Not at all. He stated that we would be better off even with no trade deals. On the DP he also said this report was merely a benchmark. Nobody has said that the farmers and car producers will not get assistance of some sort to compensate.

So instead of having car makers prospering in the EU and worldwide without subsidy, we'll start givng handouts (1970s British Leyland style?) to make up for the worse trade conditions that brexit has imposed on them?

[Sway]

To add, it's my second preference, but only due to a compressed schedule.

Why do you think Nissan Sunderland is one of, if not the, most efficient car plant in the world? Because it has to compete globally within Nissan to win it's business...

[///ajd]

Sway said:

Is that what I said, or did I say I welcome the drive to improve and outcompete?

Then everyone benefits - the company, it's customers, and it's shareholders.

10% is a doddle, if the drive is there. Tariffs prevent that drive...

We both know they need to chase the % savings to stand still against rivals like BMW - everyone in a competent engineering industry is chasing those efficiencies under continuous improvement all the time. Its non-stop. They don't just say - here's a new tariff lets work extra hard to maximise profits. They are maximising all the time.

Tariffs just make it all the harder to compete if you're on the wrong end of them - and business will act to avoid them, moving factories is low hanging fruit.

Minford - perhaps as an academic - doesn't seem to get that. I don't know an engineer who wouldn't pick his car industry tariff idea to bits.

[KrissKross]

///ajd said:

doesn't seem to get that

Nor do people who work for the EU