The 'No to the EU' campaign

[Bill]

Ridgemont said:

... re immigration...

The notes in the latest yougov poll make this clear (page 4).

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uplo...

I don't think that shows what you think it does. That asks both sides which the most important element of the decision making process is, not just Leavers.

ETA I think the Brexit team are shying away from spelling out a plan because they know EFTA and possibly the EEA plan retains freedom of movement (that poll says 16% of the total see immigration as the main issue, and I bet they're all Brexiters...), and going full Brexit risks the economy.

I don't think anyone anywhere near the government has the stomach for full Brexit so what ever the result there's going to be a lot of disappointed Brexiters.

Edited by Bill on Saturday 30th April 07:50

[turbobloke]

Bill said:

Ridgemont said:

... re immigration...

The notes in the latest yougov poll make this clear (page 4).

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uplo...

I don't think that shows what you think it does.

What does Ridgemont think it shows? I can't speak for others so don't know.

[Bill]

This is the full quote (ie his actual words, not something someone who disagrees with him says he could have said. ):

Ridgemont said:

/sigh

I really have tried to avoid rising to some pretty epic trolling but I can't let this stand.

Time and time you throw in immigration. It really doesn't count as a key issue for brexiters. It may well influence the undecided in the same way the economy may, but it shouldn't have escaped your attention that almost no one in the leave camp on this thread hardly ever mentions it. Apart from you.

The notes in the latest yougov poll make this clear (page 4).

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uplo...

For most of us the EEA solution which you iteratively ignore is a perfectly acceptable low risk first step.
I have no idea why I'm bothering responding as you pay no attention to repeated statements of this ilk, instead moving swiftly on to Squirrels and whatever your topic du jour is with don.

It looks to me that he's using those figures to show that immigration isn't an issue for significant numbers of Brexiters. I hope we can agree that that's not what it shows.

[turbobloke]

Bill said:

It looks to me that he's using those figures to show that immigration isn't an issue for significant numbers of Brexiters. I hope we can agree that that's not what it shows.

Ridgemont may be along at some point to confirm or refute.

[turbobloke]

Another chance either to agree with or disagree with Michael Gove as he writes in the Daily Mail about The Albanian Option and more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3566620/...

[powerstroke]

turbobloke said:

Another chance either to agree with or disagree with Michael Gove as he writes in the Daily Mail about The Albanian Option and more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3566620/...

I think it will be fine , and think how much less they will charge for a car wash ,

[FiF]

turbobloke said:

Bill said:

It looks to me that he's using those figures to show that immigration isn't an issue for significant numbers of Brexiters. I hope we can agree that that's not what it shows.

Ridgemont may be along at some point to confirm or refute.

However his point that almost no one on the Leave side in this thread mentions it apart from Remainders wanting to divert and by implication throw the R accusation even if it's never actually written in clear language.

Going back to the beginning of this thread or maybe the UKIP one, I don't recall, definitely recall saying on more than one occasion, that Farage, UKIP and their voice on immigration would definitely be a hindrance to the Leave campaign. So it's proved, not only because it's resulted in the organisation ultimately designated official Leave campaign from dropping the Flexcit exit strategy simply due to howls from Ukippers over freedom of movement.

[Bill]

turbobloke said:

Ridgemont may be along at some point to confirm or refute.

[turbobloke]

FiF said:

So it's proved, not only because it's resulted in the organisation ultimately designated official Leave campaign from dropping the Flexcit exit strategy simply due to howls from Ukippers over freedom of movement.

Indeed. At least those charged with negotiating Brexit, in the (less than evens?) chance we vote Leave, can and very likely will do their own thing with nothing ruled out.

[powerstroke]

turbobloke said:

Bill said:

It looks to me that he's using those figures to show that immigration isn't an issue for significant numbers of Brexiters. I hope we can agree that that's not what it shows.

Ridgemont may be along at some point to confirm or refute.

I think immigration is a factor !!! and control is the difference between the country ending up like 3rd world or some standard of living for us proles so
staying in and ending up with thousands more from a low wage economy won't help our standard of living
eventualy it will fk it up even for the wealthy at which time questions will be asked,
we are long overdue a points style immigration system as UKIP have been proposing ..
Brexit or some major fall out later seems to be the only solution.....

[Cobnapint]

turbobloke said:

Another chance either to agree with or disagree with Michael Gove as he writes in the Daily Mail about The Albanian Option and more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3566620/...

Another brilliant and spot on piece from Gove.

He's PM material in my book.

Cameron must go in the event of Brexit, we couldn't trust him in the negotiations on the subject of free movement.

[FiF]

turbobloke said:

FiF said:

So it's proved, not only because it's resulted in the organisation ultimately designated official Leave campaign from dropping the Flexcit exit strategy simply due to howls from Ukippers over freedom of movement.

Indeed. At least those charged with negotiating Brexit, in the (less than evens?) chance we vote Leave, can and very likely will do their own thing with nothing ruled out.

Furthermore just had a look at those poll results, and I think what it shows is as follows is that for Leavers immigration is not the most significant, that is in second place by a decent margin. However if you look at the answer to the question split by recalled vote in the 2015GE, more than half, maybe 60% comes from UKIP voters, more than double Cons and four times swing voters. Supports my earlier comments I think.

The other thing about that poll is that the later questions about what the effects of Brexit will be are hampered by the lack of stating in the question the terms of exit. Thus results fairly meaningless imo.

Another observation, sticks head above parapet. Is anyone else concerned that someone makes a post effectively making a complaint about the epic trolling that is going on, it's as clear as day along with the obvious baiting, that a moderator comes along, even quotes the effing post, yet makes no comment about the trolling complaint. Not acceptable in my view.

Have long said that moderators should have some means of indicating when they are posting in a purely personal capacity and when they have the moderator hat on, especially if they have a dog in the fight. To be fair have never seen it on PH but it's not unknown on certain fora that valid disagreement with a mod on an issue on topic results in a permanent ban even though no posting T&Cs contravention.

[powerstroke]

Cobnapint said:

turbobloke said:

Another chance either to agree with or disagree with Michael Gove as he writes in the Daily Mail about The Albanian Option and more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3566620/...

Another brilliant and spot on piece from Gove.

He's PM material in my book.

Cameron must go in the event of Brexit, we couldn't trust him in the negotiations on the subject of free movement.

Yes he and Osborn both are yesterdays men and utterly toxic ... along with that awful May woman

Edited by powerstroke on Saturday 30th April 09:03

[Ridgemont]

turbobloke said:

Bill said:

It looks to me that he's using those figures to show that immigration isn't an issue for significant numbers of Brexiters. I hope we can agree that that's not what it shows.

Ridgemont may be along at some point to confirm or refute.

From the data however reformatted to work in non spreadsheet format.
Remember my point is not that immigration isn't important; its that for leavers it's less important than sovereignty.
The question is what will best motivate swing voters. My point is that economy trumps immigration.

Which the data confirms.

Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?

Leave inclined voters

Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 11%

Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 33%

Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 43%

Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%

Something else 5%

Noneofthese 4%


Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?

swing voters

Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 29%

Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 12%

Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 34%

Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%

Something else 5%

Noneofthese 17%

[Sway]

Bill said:

Ridgemont said:

... re immigration...

The notes in the latest yougov poll make this clear (page 4).

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uplo...

I don't think that shows what you think it does. That asks both sides which the most important element of the decision making process is, not just Leavers.

ETA I think the Brexit team are shying away from spelling out a plan because they know EFTA and possibly the EEA plan retains freedom of movement (that poll says 16% of the total see immigration as the main issue, and I bet they're all Brexiters...), and going full Brexit risks the economy.

I don't think anyone anywhere near the government has the stomach for full Brexit so what ever the result there's going to be a lot of disappointed Brexiters.

Edited by Bill on Saturday 30th April 07:50

EFTA membership is different for each member, the Swiss, as I keep saying, can and do limit residency beyond three months: https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement-or-study-switzerla...

Now under the gainful employment clause, there are quotas, and whilst I cannot quickly find a link that shows that I had to prove I wasn't undercutting a local Swiss, this may have been a Zurich Cantonal requirement.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&a...

[JawKnee]

Cobnapint said:

Another brilliant and spot on piece from Gove.

He's PM material in my book.

[Ridgemont]

FiF said:

However his point that almost no one on the Leave side in this thread mentions it apart from Remainders wanting to divert and by implication throw the R accusation even if it's never actually written in clear language.

Going back to the beginning of this thread or maybe the UKIP one, I don't recall, definitely recall saying on more than one occasion, that Farage, UKIP and their voice on immigration would definitely be a hindrance to the Leave campaign. So it's proved, not only because it's resulted in the organisation ultimately designated official Leave campaign from dropping the Flexcit exit strategy simply due to howls from Ukippers over freedom of movement.

Thanks FiF - that summarises both my points nicely. Someone a page or two back claimed 75% (not sure which fundament that figure was plucked from) of leavers were motivated by immigration. No. Not on this thread and certainly not according to yougov.

That leave has been damaged by Farage, and also by the resultant lack of focus on the economy, is pretty much self evident.

Either way looking at the data, leave can still win this by focussing on sovereignty and the EEA. That leave wants to pigeonhole the remainers as Colonel Blimp Enoch powellers should tell you that leave would be better focussing its efforts elsewhere.

[KrissKross]

Alex said:

maffski said:

don4l said:

"Unilaterally scrapping import tariffs".

You really are stark, staring mad if you think that anyone believes that that could happen

Utterly, utterly bonkers.

Project Fear has produced some nonsense, but this really takes the biscuit.

Whilst it's unlikely it would happen, it's the sensible thing to do.

For consumers imports represent things we want, they make our lives better otherwise we wouldn't bother importing them. So any tariff on imports harms your own citizens.

For businesses imports represent the best of the competition, which forces that nations companies to improve to remain competitive. Making your businesses more productive improves the deal consumers get, again making their lives better.

So, why wouldn't you want no import tariffs, if their only function is to protect the vested interest of a small subset of your citizenry, at a cost to everyone else?

Spot on. It's basic economics. Tariffs are political.

+ 2 Spot on, what maffski said.

[KrissKross]

steveT350C said:

///ajd said:

KrissKross said:

KrissKross said:

///ajd said:

Presumably

AJD, which bit of the FACTS they are discussing here is incorrect:

https://youtu.be/_c8jznwzVbE

Still waiting.

I can't stream that at moment, coming up as 11 minutes long. which facts, when?

How is your stream?

AJD - Is your internet working yet?

[Bill]

FiF said:

Another observation, sticks head above parapet. Is anyone else concerned that someone makes a post effectively making a complaint about the epic trolling that is going on, it's as clear as day along with the obvious baiting, that a moderator comes along, even quotes the effing post, yet makes no comment about the trolling complaint. Not acceptable in my view.

Have long said that moderators should have some means of indicating when they are posting in a purely personal capacity and when they have the moderator hat on, especially if they have a dog in the fight. To be fair have never seen it on PH but it's not unknown on certain fora that valid disagreement with a mod on an issue on topic results in a permanent ban even though no posting T&Cs contravention.

I don't think he is trolling anymore than some others on both sides, and he makes some valid points. You are welcome to disagree and you can use the report button. I realise people disagree but I don't have a dog in this fight and am questioning Brexiters more because any query about what the Remainers post is picked up on PDQ.

That said, I won't moderate this thread unless it goes comp!etely beserk because I am involved and realise how that looks.