The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
Ridgemont said:
From the data however reformatted to work in non spreadsheet format.
Remember my point is not that immigration isn't important; its that for leavers it's less important than sovereignty.
The question is what will best motivate swing voters. My point is that economy trumps immigration.
Which the data confirms.
Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?
Leave inclined voters
Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 11%
Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 33%
Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 43%
Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%
Something else 5%
Noneofthese 4%
Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?
swing voters
Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 29%
Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 12%
Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 34%
Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%
Something else 5%
Noneofthese 17%
Thank you. I have to admit I'd missed the break down by voting intention, but if anything it still doesn't show what your saying IMO. For 33% of Brexiters it's the main issue, and there's no way of knowing how many of the others feel it's "a key" issue. As far as swing voters go I'm surprised it's that high, because the only way to change immigration is by voting out.Remember my point is not that immigration isn't important; its that for leavers it's less important than sovereignty.
The question is what will best motivate swing voters. My point is that economy trumps immigration.
Which the data confirms.
Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?
Leave inclined voters
Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 11%
Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 33%
Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 43%
Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%
Something else 5%
Noneofthese 4%
Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?
swing voters
Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 29%
Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 12%
Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 34%
Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%
Something else 5%
Noneofthese 17%
Bill said:
I don't think he is trolling anymore than some others on both sides, and he makes some valid points. You are welcome to disagree and you can use the report button. I realise people disagree but I don't have a dog in this fight and am questioning Brexiters more because any query about what the Remainers post is picked up on PDQ.
That said, I won't moderate this thread unless it goes comp!etely beserk because I am involved and realise how that looks.
Ok. I'll choose my words carefully. Some of the most frequent remain posters engage frequently in material points. However a substantial number of posts insinuate that those inclined to vote leave are motivated by immigration. Many dozens of times a discussion gets derailed by squirrel tactics and ad homs. The tetchy tone in thread appears to me, as a relatively infrequent poster, to reflect annoyance for leaver inclined posters on being painted as racist. To be honest I'm quite prepared to acknowledge that the content of the wider referendum is partly to blame for that, and leavers have to be aware that some of their fellow travellers are motivated by race. But in the context of this thread it would be nice to deal with the content of the posts and not deliberate 'ok I won't deal with the point and instead drop another immigration reference in to see who bites'. YMMV.That said, I won't moderate this thread unless it goes comp!etely beserk because I am involved and realise how that looks.
Ridgemont said:
turbobloke said:
Bill said:
It looks to me that he's using those figures to show that immigration isn't an issue for significant numbers of Brexiters. I hope we can agree that that's not what it shows.
Ridgemont may be along at some point to confirm or refute.Remember my point is not that immigration isn't important; its that for leavers it's less important than sovereignty.
The question is what will best motivate swing voters. My point is that economy trumps immigration.
Which the data confirms.
Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?
Leave inclined voters
Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 11%
Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 33%
Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 43%
Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%
Something else 5%
Noneofthese 4%
Which one of the following will be most important in deciding how you vote in the referendum?
swing voters
Which is likely to be better for jobs, investment and the economy generally 29%
Which is likely to help us deal better with the issue of immigration 12%
Which is likely to strike a better balance between Britain's right to act independently, and the appropriate level of co-operation with other countries 34%
Which is likely to maximise Britain's influence in the world 4%
Something else 5%
Noneofthese 17%
It is not trolling when a post in here showed around 75% of ph brexiters would put doing something about immigration above single market access.
Heck, you even made a statement "no one on here cares about immigration, and only a few posts later pops up "I do, I do!"
Its a real split, and the post above is bang on the money - it seems flexcit is being ignored as it doesn't do what it seems a lot of voters are asking for.
These are facts. Don't blame me for discussing the cracks in the leave side - indeed it should be made crystal clear to all what a mess it will be - and all sides will be disappointed. Just like indie ref - its been painted as all things to everyone, which is patently impossible to deliver. Cake, cake and eat it.
PS no wifi yet, won't stream on 3g
Bill said:
I don't think he is trolling anymore than some others on both sides, and he makes some valid points. You are welcome to disagree and you can use the report button. I realise people disagree but I don't have a dog in this fight and am questioning Brexiters more because any query about what the Remainers post is picked up on PDQ.
That said, I won't moderate this thread unless it goes comp!etely beserk because I am involved and realise how that looks.
Thanks for that Bill. valid points are far and few between amongst the rest of the deliberate baiting, continual and admitted ignoring of others' answers and explanations. Looks like we're going to have to disagree. Though by his obtuse attitude probably doing more harm to the Remain campaign, and some Leavers guilty of the reciprocal of that too.That said, I won't moderate this thread unless it goes comp!etely beserk because I am involved and realise how that looks.
Here is the poll
76 ph responses
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Only 7% put single market access and keeping 4 freedoms as the outcome they want.
Of the rest there is a bias towards - economy less important than control of movement
I note increasingly I'm being attacked for discussing the opinions and preferences of those here who are freely expeessing them in a brexit context. It is up to you guys what views you put forward.
76 ph responses
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Only 7% put single market access and keeping 4 freedoms as the outcome they want.
Of the rest there is a bias towards - economy less important than control of movement
I note increasingly I'm being attacked for discussing the opinions and preferences of those here who are freely expeessing them in a brexit context. It is up to you guys what views you put forward.
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 30th April 10:57
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 30th April 10:58
KrissKross said:
There are many reasons to leave, and each person will have their views on what's most important.
My issue is that no one at all can demonstrate a single reason to stay?
As admitted and indeed advertised by Jacques Delors when addressing the TUC many years ago, while the EU is about many things one of them is bringing in socialism on an EU-wide basis. This is attractive to socialists but won't likely be admitted as it's best to keep up the pretence. What Delors advertised has happened and is happening, redistribution of wealth being the most obvious symptom, plus all the social direction that member states must swallow. The federal EUSSR superstate is big government with control freak knobs on, another attraction to those typically of the left who think (leftist) politicians know better what to do with other people's money than the people themselves. A reason to stay is to keep this going when the UK electorate is realising the empty promises of the UK left are best rejected.My issue is that no one at all can demonstrate a single reason to stay?
This is not to say that there are no left-leaning people who have other reasons for voting Leave, Corbyn was once one of them. As you say, it depends on what each person thinks of as their priorities.
Bill said:
Thank you. I have to admit I'd missed the break down by voting intention, but if anything it still doesn't show what your saying IMO. For 33% of Brexiters it's the main issue, and there's no way of knowing how many of the others feel it's "a key" issue. As far as swing voters go I'm surprised it's that high, because the only way to change immigration is by voting out.
We have only the data as presented to go on but 43%, substantially ahead of other reasons, of leavers indicate sovereignty is the key issue. A point made over and over on the thread, only for comments like 75% are motivated by immigration. FWIW I agree that it is headscratching that so many of the target swing group are motivated by immigration yet aren't in the remain camp.. Not sure what they think is going to happen if they vote remain
///ajd said:
It is not trolling when a post in here showed around 75% of ph brexiters would put doing something about immigration above single market access.
I have to say that I thought you'd plucked that number out of thin air.ETA just seen your post above, PH is not representative of the wider population, but...
Edited by Bill on Saturday 30th April 10:57
///ajd said:
Here is the poll
76 ph responses
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Only 7% put single market access and keeping 4 freedoms as the outcome they want.
Of the rest there is a bias towards - economy less important than control of movement
I note increasingly I'm being attacked for discussing the opinions and preferences of those here who are freely expeessing them in a brexit context. It is up to you guys what views you put forward.
76 Responses is not a valid sample (even of PH never mind the population at large) ergo your entire point is fatuous. 76 ph responses
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Only 7% put single market access and keeping 4 freedoms as the outcome they want.
Of the rest there is a bias towards - economy less important than control of movement
I note increasingly I'm being attacked for discussing the opinions and preferences of those here who are freely expeessing them in a brexit context. It is up to you guys what views you put forward.
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 30th April 10:58
Bill said:
///ajd said:
It is not trolling when a post in here showed around 75% of ph brexiters would put doing something about immigration above single market access.
I have to say that I thought you'd plucked that number out of thin air.ETA just seen your post above, PH is not representative of the wider population, but...
Edited by Bill on Saturday 30th April 10:57
I agree ph is hardly representative, but the argument that ph is full only of flexcit moderates on the brexcit side and none here are in the slightest bit motivated by immigration - this doesn't seem to reflect reality.
I still think its an interesting question as to how those differences would be managed if there was a brexit.
Jinx said:
///ajd said:
Here is the poll
76 ph responses
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Only 7% put single market access and keeping 4 freedoms as the outcome they want.
Of the rest there is a bias towards - economy less important than control of movement
I note increasingly I'm being attacked for discussing the opinions and preferences of those here who are freely expeessing them in a brexit context. It is up to you guys what views you put forward.
76 Responses is not a valid sample (even of PH never mind the population at large) ergo your entire point is fatuous. 76 ph responses
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Only 7% put single market access and keeping 4 freedoms as the outcome they want.
Of the rest there is a bias towards - economy less important than control of movement
I note increasingly I'm being attacked for discussing the opinions and preferences of those here who are freely expeessing them in a brexit context. It is up to you guys what views you put forward.
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 30th April 10:58
What is it representative of?
grumbledoak said:
KrissKross said:
My issue is that no one at all can demonstrate a single reason to stay?
"Roaming charges" is the list, apparently.The fact that we presently have control over our borders - except that we don't, and May admitted last Sunday that being a member of the EU makes it more difficult.....
And the fact that CMD has reformed the EU - when he actually hasn't done anything of the kind.
Cobnapint said:
grumbledoak said:
KrissKross said:
My issue is that no one at all can demonstrate a single reason to stay?
"Roaming charges" is the list, apparently.The fact that we presently have control over our borders - except that we don't, and May admitted last Sunday that being a member of the EU makes it more difficult.....
And the fact that CMD has reformed the EU - when he actually hasn't done anything of the kind.
Socialism.
Wealth distribution.
Dictatorship.
Roaming Charges.
Edited by KrissKross on Saturday 30th April 12:23
Jinx said:
///ajd said:
Is it repesentative of posters here?
What is it representative of?
Nothing. You don't even know if any of the posters here voted.What is it representative of?
- ph ers who have no interest in brexit
- ph ers, like on this thread i guess, who are interested in brexit
seems likely that many are in the lower group, but who knows.
perhaps they are all recent ph members i recruited (using proceeds from the 13.2p insults) to vote specially to make phers look like they have a thing about immigration?
only you can decide which you think is most likely
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