The 'No to the EU' campaign

[///ajd]

Mrr T said:

Why should I do that?

Maybe you should google Schengen Agreement and Amsterdam Treaty.

I have seen some academic discussion about whether a government could renounce the Schengen clauses in the EU agreement. [b]Its clear a government could do that and under other EU laws there is very little the EU can do but kick the country out of the Schengen zone. I find that's quite amusing.

So all the voters need to do is vote for a government who commits to do that.[/b]

Not rocket science this democracy, is it?

[powerstroke]

///ajd said:

Not rocket science this democracy, is it?

No!! but seems you don't like the idea of it.....

[Cobnapint]

powerstroke said:

///ajd said:

Not rocket science this democracy, is it?

No!! but seems you don't like the idea of it.....

Ooooosh!

[///ajd]

powerstroke said:

///ajd said:

Not rocket science this democracy, is it?

No!! but seems you don't like the idea of it.....

I like the idea of it, and understand it.

It seems others are struggling with the rather obvious point Mrr T is making.

And others still celebrate the ignorance. Quite remarkable.

Edited by ///ajd on Friday 6th May 22:14

[Sylvaforever]

Which has been consigned to the ether by your single minded approach to "debate" on this forum.

[wiggy001]

///ajd said:

I like the idea of it, and understand it.

It seems others are struggling with the rather obvious point Mrr T is making.

And others still celebrate the ignorance. Quite remarkable.

Edited by ///ajd on Friday 6th May 22:14

Sorry, you are going to have to explain this one to me in simple terms because I am obviously missing something. To summarise:

I asked what EU citizens could do to prevent the agreement with Turkey which means they get visa-free travel in the EU and a hefty bung in return for a refugee swap deal.

Mrr T said that they could vote for a party that would oppose the treaty.

I've asked what treaty is responsible for the above, as I don't believe (maybe incorrectly) that the deal with Turkey is party of a treaty that we, or Shengen citizens could vote against.

I've yet to get an answer.

As I said, in simple words please to prevent any confusion: what could any EU citizen have reasonably done to prevent the £2+bn payment and visa-free travel arrangement being given to Turkey?

[anonymous-user]

wiggy001 said:

///ajd said:

I like the idea of it, and understand it.

It seems others are struggling with the rather obvious point Mrr T is making.

And others still celebrate the ignorance. Quite remarkable.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 6th May 22:14

Sorry, you are going to have to explain this one to me in simple terms because I am obviously missing something. To summarise:

I asked what EU citizens could do to prevent the agreement with Turkey which means they get visa-free travel in the EU and a hefty bung in return for a refugee swap deal.

Mrr T said that they could vote for a party that would oppose the treaty.

I've asked what treaty is responsible for the above, as I don't believe (maybe incorrectly) that the deal with Turkey is party of a treaty that we, or Shengen citizens could vote against.

I've yet to get an answer.

As I said, in simple words please to prevent any confusion: what could any EU citizen have reasonably done to prevent the £2+bn payment and visa-free travel arrangement being given to Turkey?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[///ajd]

wiggy001 said:

Sorry, you are going to have to explain this one to me in simple terms because I am obviously missing something. To summarise:

I asked what EU citizens could do to prevent the agreement with Turkey which means they get visa-free travel in the EU and a hefty bung in return for a refugee swap deal.

Mrr T said that they could vote for a party that would oppose the treaty.

I've asked what treaty is responsible for the above, as I don't believe (maybe incorrectly) that the deal with Turkey is party of a treaty that we, or Shengen citizens could vote against.

I've yet to get an answer.

As I said, in simple words please to prevent any confusion: what could any EU citizen have reasonably done to prevent the £2+bn payment and visa-free travel arrangement being given to Turkey?

Well they could choose to reverse it - e.g. in France they could put the NF in power; in Germany, they could put Pegida in power - etc.

Those parties would soon act to either withdraw their respective nations from the EU or act in other ways to frustrate the EU.

But those parties don't seem to get enough votes, do they?

I suppose that's democracy.

To get into power in a democracy they would have to get enough votes to hold the balance of power / have a majority and be able to implement the laws and policies that they would have outlined - probably in some kind of a manifesto.

It seems manifestos are used by political parties to set out the policies that they would implement if they are voted to power. The parties publish these manifestos in advance of elections so voters can choose parties based on what they will do.

Someone could start up a very anti-EU party, focused on being isolated and independent. You could call it something like the UK isolationist party, or similar. They could publish a manifesto all about getting out of the EU and stopping nasty immigration etc., and use that to appeal to loads of voters.

Then at the next general election, the votes would pour in and they'd get 300+ MPs and be able to enact all sorts of wonderful policies that everyone in the UK wanted.

I wonder why no-one has tried that?

[FiF]

REALIST123 said:

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Exactly, the apparently wilfully obtuse nature of the comments from the Remainders makes me question the level of their knowledge.

[gothatway]

FiF said:

Exactly, the apparently wilfully obtuse nature of the comments from the Remainders makes me question the level of their knowledge their desperation.

FTFY

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

wiggy001 said:

Sorry, you are going to have to explain this one to me in simple terms because I am obviously missing something. To summarise:

I asked what EU citizens could do to prevent the agreement with Turkey which means they get visa-free travel in the EU and a hefty bung in return for a refugee swap deal.

Mrr T said that they could vote for a party that would oppose the treaty.

I've asked what treaty is responsible for the above, as I don't believe (maybe incorrectly) that the deal with Turkey is party of a treaty that we, or Shengen citizens could vote against.

I've yet to get an answer.

As I said, in simple words please to be prevent any confusion: what could any EU citizen have reasonably done to prevent the £2+bn payment and visa-free travel arrangement being given to Turkey?

Well they could choose to reverse it - e.g. in France they could put the NF in power; in Germany, they could put Pegida in power - etc.

Those parties would soon act to either withdraw their respective nations from the EU or act in other ways to frustrate the EU.

But those parties don't seem to get enough votes, do they?

I suppose that's democracy.

To get into power in a democracy they would have to get enough votes to hold the balance of power / have a majority and be able to implement the laws and policies that they would have outlined - probably in some kind of a manifesto.

It seems manifestos are used by political parties to set out the policies that they would implement if they are voted to power. The parties publish these manifestos in advance of elections so voters can choose parties based on what they will do.

Someone could start up a very anti-EU party, focused on being isolated and independent. You could call it something like the UK isolationist party, or similar. They could publish a manifesto all about getting out of the EU and stopping nasty immigration etc., and use that to appeal to loads of voters.

Then at the next general election, the votes would pour in and they'd get 300+ MPs and be able to enact all sorts of wonderful policies that everyone in the UK wanted.

I wonder why no-one has tried that?

None of that could alter the situation with Turkey. Only a fool would think it could.

[wiggy001]

///ajd said:

wiggy001 said:

Sorry, you are going to have to explain this one to me in simple terms because I am obviously missing something. To summarise:

I asked what EU citizens could do to prevent the agreement with Turkey which means they get visa-free travel in the EU and a hefty bung in return for a refugee swap deal.

Mrr T said that they could vote for a party that would oppose the treaty.

I've asked what treaty is responsible for the above, as I don't believe (maybe incorrectly) that the deal with Turkey is party of a treaty that we, or Shengen citizens could vote against.

I've yet to get an answer.

As I said, in simple words please to prevent any confusion: what could any EU citizen have reasonably done to prevent the £2+bn payment and visa-free travel arrangement being given to Turkey?

Well they could choose to reverse it - e.g. in France they could put the NF in power; in Germany, they could put Pegida in power - etc.

Those parties would soon act to either withdraw their respective nations from the EU or act in other ways to frustrate the EU.

But those parties don't seem to get enough votes, do they?

I suppose that's democracy.

To get into power in a democracy they would have to get enough votes to hold the balance of power / have a majority and be able to implement the laws and policies that they would have outlined - probably in some kind of a manifesto.

It seems manifestos are used by political parties to set out the policies that they would implement if they are voted to power. The parties publish these manifestos in advance of elections so voters can choose parties based on what they will do.

Someone could start up a very anti-EU party, focused on being isolated and independent. You could call it something like the UK isolationist party, or similar. They could publish a manifesto all about getting out of the EU and stopping nasty immigration etc., and use that to appeal to loads of voters.

Then at the next general election, the votes would pour in and they'd get 300+ MPs and be able to enact all sorts of wonderful policies that everyone in the UK wanted.

I wonder why no-one has tried that?

Ok, now we are getting somewhere, although I still need to read between the lines of your response for the true answer.

The fact is, as a member of the EU there is absolutely no way for the citizens of the UK to influence anything about "the Union". If "the union" decides we will strike a deal with Turkey then so be it. If "the union" decides we will strike a TTIP deal with the US then so be it. If "the union" decides we will ruin the economy of Greece for generations then so be it. And who is "the union"? It's not us is it?

And, and here's the crucial point, if "the union" decides to accept Turkey as a full blown member. Or embark on further deals with [choose a nation] that are at the detriment of [choose a supposedly sovereign Eu state]... then so be it.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent of the democracy within the EU.

So a vote to stay is a vote for the unknown, decided by the unelected, imposed on the citizens of the EU whether they like it or not.

My dictionary states that a dictatorship implies absolute power . Do we really want to live under such a regime?

[John145]

Pro-EU is pro-isolationism

[///ajd]

REALIST123 said:

///ajd said:

wiggy001 said:

Sorry, you are going to have to explain this one to me in simple terms because I am obviously missing something. To summarise:

I asked what EU citizens could do to prevent the agreement with Turkey which means they get visa-free travel in the EU and a hefty bung in return for a refugee swap deal.

Mrr T said that they could vote for a party that would oppose the treaty.

I've asked what treaty is responsible for the above, as I don't believe (maybe incorrectly) that the deal with Turkey is party of a treaty that we, or Shengen citizens could vote against.

I've yet to get an answer.

As I said, in simple words please to be prevent any confusion: what could any EU citizen have reasonably done to prevent the £2+bn payment and visa-free travel arrangement being given to Turkey?

Well they could choose to reverse it - e.g. in France they could put the NF in power; in Germany, they could put Pegida in power - etc.

Those parties would soon act to either withdraw their respective nations from the EU or act in other ways to frustrate the EU.

But those parties don't seem to get enough votes, do they?

I suppose that's democracy.

To get into power in a democracy they would have to get enough votes to hold the balance of power / have a majority and be able to implement the laws and policies that they would have outlined - probably in some kind of a manifesto.

It seems manifestos are used by political parties to set out the policies that they would implement if they are voted to power. The parties publish these manifestos in advance of elections so voters can choose parties based on what they will do.

Someone could start up a very anti-EU party, focused on being isolated and independent. You could call it something like the UK isolationist party, or similar. They could publish a manifesto all about getting out of the EU and stopping nasty immigration etc., and use that to appeal to loads of voters.

Then at the next general election, the votes would pour in and they'd get 300+ MPs and be able to enact all sorts of wonderful policies that everyone in the UK wanted.

I wonder why no-one has tried that?

None of that could alter the situation with Turkey. Only a fool would think it could.

It would be a situation similar to brexit, so what is your point?

Once you brexit do you intend to start imposing your will on other nations border & immigration policies? Is that how you want to change the situation with Turkey?

[///ajd]

wiggy001 said:

Ok, now we are getting somewhere, although I still need to read between the lines of your response for the true answer.

The fact is, as a member of the EU there is absolutely no way for the citizens of the UK to influence anything about "the Union". If "the union" decides we will strike a deal with Turkey then so be it. If "the union" decides we will strike a TTIP deal with the US then so be it. If "the union" decides we will ruin the economy of Greece for generations then so be it. And who is "the union"? It's not us is it?

And, and here's the crucial point, if "the union" decides to accept Turkey as a full blown member. Or embark on further deals with [choose a nation] that are at the detriment of [choose a supposedly sovereign Eu state]... then so be it.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent of the democracy within the EU.

So a vote to stay is a vote for the unknown, decided by the unelected, imposed on the citizens of the EU whether they like it or not.

My dictionary states that a dictatorship implies absolute power . Do we really want to live under such a regime?

absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU.

but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?

so its not a dictatorship, is it?

what does your dictionary say about absolute b0llocks?

[NoNeed]

///ajd said:

wiggy001 said:

Ok, now we are getting somewhere, although I still need to read between the lines of your response for the true answer.

The fact is, as a member of the EU there is absolutely no way for the citizens of the UK to influence anything about "the Union". If "the union" decides we will strike a deal with Turkey then so be it. If "the union" decides we will strike a TTIP deal with the US then so be it. If "the union" decides we will ruin the economy of Greece for generations then so be it. And who is "the union"? It's not us is it?

And, and here's the crucial point, if "the union" decides to accept Turkey as a full blown member. Or embark on further deals with [choose a nation] that are at the detriment of [choose a supposedly sovereign Eu state]... then so be it.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent of the democracy within the EU.

So a vote to stay is a vote for the unknown, decided by the unelected, imposed on the citizens of the EU whether they like it or not.

My dictionary states that a dictatorship implies absolute power . Do we really want to live under such a regime?

absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU.

but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?

so its not a dictatorship, is it?

what does your dictionary say about absolute b0llocks?

Has any country left? Has any country that voted No and wanted to leave actually left?

[alfie2244]

///ajd said:

absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU.

but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?

so its not a dictatorship, is it?

what does your dictionary say about absolute b0llocks?

Unless they give the wrong answer of course at which point they get ignored or have another vote until they get the right one.

[///ajd]

alfie2244 said:

///ajd said:

absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU.

but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?

so its not a dictatorship, is it?

what does your dictionary say about absolute b0llocks?

Unless they give the wrong answer of course at which point they get ignored or have another vote until they get the right one.

Not if UKIP got into power. They would just get us straight out.

[alfie2244]

///ajd said:

alfie2244 said:

///ajd said:

absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU.

but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?

so its not a dictatorship, is it?

what does your dictionary say about absolute b0llocks?

Unless they give the wrong answer of course at which point they get ignored or have another vote until they get the right one.

Not if UKIP got into power. They would just get us straight out.

Well the sooner the better as far as I am concerned...................btw do you know any rocket scientists?

[John145]

///ajd said:

absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU.

but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?

so its not a dictatorship, is it?

what does your dictionary say about absolute

no one has said it is a dictatorship. The EU is a beaurocracy.

Decisions made by beaurocrats imposed upon member states.