The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
John145 said:
///ajd said:
absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU.
but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?
so its not a dictatorship, is it?
what does your dictionary say about absolute
no one has said it is a dictatorship. The EU is a beaurocracy.but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?
so its not a dictatorship, is it?
what does your dictionary say about absolute
Decisions made by beaurocrats imposed upon member states.
///ajd said:
wiggy said something about a dictatorship.
I said a dictatorship implies absolute power. ie there is no democracy and you must do as you are told. As is the case in the EU. The positive of the EU is that, in theory, we can leave. If that is the only democratic point of the EU then I, and many others, want out as it suggests to anyone with a brain that the EU is not in any way democratic. A point you have made yourself with your "put up or leave" attitude.It's like saying you must enjoy our Tory government or emigrate, suggesting there is no other option for the population of the UK.
You're not doing a very good job of explaining how I'm wrong by the way.
///ajd said:
wiggy001 said:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere, although I still need to read between the lines of your response for the true answer.
The fact is, as a member of the EU there is absolutely no way for the citizens of the UK to influence anything about "the Union". If "the union" decides we will strike a deal with Turkey then so be it. If "the union" decides we will strike a TTIP deal with the US then so be it. If "the union" decides we will ruin the economy of Greece for generations then so be it. And who is "the union"? It's not us is it?
And, and here's the crucial point, if "the union" decides to accept Turkey as a full blown member. Or embark on further deals with [choose a nation] that are at the detriment of [choose a supposedly sovereign Eu state]... then so be it.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent of the democracy within the EU.
So a vote to stay is a vote for the unknown, decided by the unelected, imposed on the citizens of the EU whether they like it or not.
My dictionary states that a dictatorship implies absolute power . Do we really want to live under such a regime?
absolute power implies no nation could leave the grip of the EU. The fact is, as a member of the EU there is absolutely no way for the citizens of the UK to influence anything about "the Union". If "the union" decides we will strike a deal with Turkey then so be it. If "the union" decides we will strike a TTIP deal with the US then so be it. If "the union" decides we will ruin the economy of Greece for generations then so be it. And who is "the union"? It's not us is it?
And, and here's the crucial point, if "the union" decides to accept Turkey as a full blown member. Or embark on further deals with [choose a nation] that are at the detriment of [choose a supposedly sovereign Eu state]... then so be it.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent of the democracy within the EU.
So a vote to stay is a vote for the unknown, decided by the unelected, imposed on the citizens of the EU whether they like it or not.
My dictionary states that a dictatorship implies absolute power . Do we really want to live under such a regime?
but nations are free to have referendums on leaving, aren't they?
so its not a dictatorship, is it?
what does your dictionary say about absolute b0llocks?
Why would we not given that we clearly have no real control of the situation as you acknowledge?
Cobnapint said:
powerstroke said:
///ajd said:
Not rocket science this democracy, is it?
No!! but seems you don't like the idea of it..... Anyone would think we were about to get powers to elect / boot out the Barrosos, Junckers and Tusks of the troughing EU cesspooliverse, or heaven forbid more than 1/28th of a voice (which is still ignored or outvoted).
///ajd said:
Someone could start up a very anti-EU party, focused on being isolated and independent. You could call it something like the UK isolationist party, or similar. They could publish a manifesto all about getting out of the EU and stopping nasty immigration etc., and use that to appeal to loads of voters.
Then at the next general election, the votes would pour in and they'd get 300+ MPs and be able to enact all sorts of wonderful policies that everyone in the UK wanted.
I wonder why no-one has tried that?
You must live in a parallel
universe to the rest of us do you have any practical grasp of the wider world???
Edited by powerstroke on Saturday 7th May 08:26
Does anyone here (even those of remaining in the EU) actually believe it is a democratic organization>?
Do they seriously believe that Greece or even the UK has as much influence over the way it operates as Germany, (and heaven only knows why, France) ?
In some respects I can understand why Germany is where it is. Throughout their history, they have tried to be a dominant/impressive force in whatever they engage in, from architecture to engineering, and well...other things too, but that is in their nature.
To Germans, if something is not worth doing well / to the best standard they can achieve, then to them it is not worth doing it at all.
Consequently if anyone here believes that the UK has as much say in how the EU operates and in its direction as Germany, they are seriously deluding themselves.
If it was as simple as saying he who puts most in, gets the most out and has the most say,
the EU`s would be almost understandable, But with the UK being the second largest net contributor of funds into the EU, the UK would have to have the next greatest influence in how it is run, but this is clearly not the case.
P.s In a so called democracy Germany would have no more say in how it is run than the UK Greece, Spain etc.
Do they seriously believe that Greece or even the UK has as much influence over the way it operates as Germany, (and heaven only knows why, France) ?
In some respects I can understand why Germany is where it is. Throughout their history, they have tried to be a dominant/impressive force in whatever they engage in, from architecture to engineering, and well...other things too, but that is in their nature.
To Germans, if something is not worth doing well / to the best standard they can achieve, then to them it is not worth doing it at all.
Consequently if anyone here believes that the UK has as much say in how the EU operates and in its direction as Germany, they are seriously deluding themselves.
If it was as simple as saying he who puts most in, gets the most out and has the most say,
the EU`s would be almost understandable, But with the UK being the second largest net contributor of funds into the EU, the UK would have to have the next greatest influence in how it is run, but this is clearly not the case.
P.s In a so called democracy Germany would have no more say in how it is run than the UK Greece, Spain etc.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Saturday 7th May 08:33
powerstroke said:
///ajd said:
Someone could start up a very anti-EU party, focused on being isolated and independent. You could call it something like the UK isolationist party, or similar. They could publish a manifesto all about getting out of the EU and stopping nasty immigration etc., and use that to appeal to loads of voters.
Then at the next general election, the votes would pour in and they'd get 300+ MPs and be able to enact all sorts of wonderful policies that everyone in the UK wanted.
I wonder why no-one has tried that?
I'll put it in scot ref terms - the settled democratic will of the UK public is not to be run by UKIP and its isolationist policies. It could be, but they are not popular enough across all voters. You could say a majority absolutely reject what UKIP stand for. Thats not undemocratic, or living under a dictatorship.
Anyway - news is a bit slow on the EU ref, no new arguments for a while.
interesting conversation with someone i would regard lefter than a very left thing,thinks corbyn would be a great pm etc. after advising me of the pro's of being in the eu over the last few weeks he left me gobsmacked by saying he would now be voting out based on what he had learnt regarding ttip.
then other side of the political spectrum. a conservative voting businessman i know in the south east, who relies on imports from spain of all places, was also tending toward remain due to his personal business circumstances. again he is now voting out due to ttip. looks like the undecideds i know are starting to come down on the side of leave.
i am now off to stick a tenner on leave at the bookies before the price starts dropping
then other side of the political spectrum. a conservative voting businessman i know in the south east, who relies on imports from spain of all places, was also tending toward remain due to his personal business circumstances. again he is now voting out due to ttip. looks like the undecideds i know are starting to come down on the side of leave.
i am now off to stick a tenner on leave at the bookies before the price starts dropping
///ajd said:
Just trying to explain democracy as it seems many here fail to se the distinction between our own right to elections in the UK - where we are free to choose our own government who can do what they wish with respect to being in the EU - and what happens in the EU.
I'll put it in scot ref terms - the settled democratic will of the UK public is not to be run by UKIP and its isolationist policies. It could be, but they are not popular enough across all voters. You could say a majority absolutely reject what UKIP stand for. Thats not undemocratic, or living under a dictatorship.
Anyway - news is a bit slow on the EU ref, no new arguments for a while.
There really is no hope for you , UKIP are not and have never called for isolationist policys on that alone you have proved yourself to be a moron ,I'll put it in scot ref terms - the settled democratic will of the UK public is not to be run by UKIP and its isolationist policies. It could be, but they are not popular enough across all voters. You could say a majority absolutely reject what UKIP stand for. Thats not undemocratic, or living under a dictatorship.
Anyway - news is a bit slow on the EU ref, no new arguments for a while.
sorry but you have only come to argue and time after time nothing useful to contribute.....
wc98 said:
interesting conversation with someone i would regard lefter than a very left thing,thinks corbyn would be a great pm etc. after advising me of the pro's of being in the eu over the last few weeks he left me gobsmacked by saying he would now be voting out based on what he had learnt regarding ttip.
then other side of the political spectrum. a conservative voting businessman i know in the south east, who relies on imports from spain of all places, was also tending toward remain due to his personal business circumstances. again he is now voting out due to ttip. looks like the undecideds i know are starting to come down on the side of leave.
i am now off to stick a tenner on leave at the bookies before the price starts dropping
What specific bits of TTIP were they worried about?then other side of the political spectrum. a conservative voting businessman i know in the south east, who relies on imports from spain of all places, was also tending toward remain due to his personal business circumstances. again he is now voting out due to ttip. looks like the undecideds i know are starting to come down on the side of leave.
i am now off to stick a tenner on leave at the bookies before the price starts dropping
The nhs things seems overblown - it will be our own government that lets that be damaged, not TTIP which allows governments to protect it as they see fit. I'm just guessng that is what the corbyn guy might have latched onto?
What was the business man's gripe with it?
I have no firm view on TTIP - at first I assumed the 'destroy the nhs' stories were true, but I'm not sure thats the case at all. I'm not really clear about its wider impact.
Interestingly, some of the sticking points seem to be on the US watering down our eco legislation. Seeing how don and others are dead against EU eco measures like recycling bins etc., I wondered if the US watering down those bits of TTIP might infact appeal to them?
///ajd said:
What specific bits of TTIP were they worried about?
The nhs things seems overblown - it will be our own government that lets that be damaged, not TTIP which allows governments to protect it as they see fit. I'm just guessng that is what the corbyn guy might have latched onto?
What was the business man's gripe with it?
I have no firm view on TTIP - at first I assumed the 'destroy the nhs' stories were true, but I'm not sure thats the case at all. I'm not really clear about its wider impact.
Interestingly, some of the sticking points seem to be on the US watering down our eco legislation. Seeing how don and others are dead against EU eco measures like recycling bins etc., I wondered if the US watering down those bits of TTIP might infact appeal to them?
purely the lack of transparency in the "negotiations" from what i could tell . neither specified one single aspect of it. not surprising considering the lack of info out there regarding specifics.The nhs things seems overblown - it will be our own government that lets that be damaged, not TTIP which allows governments to protect it as they see fit. I'm just guessng that is what the corbyn guy might have latched onto?
What was the business man's gripe with it?
I have no firm view on TTIP - at first I assumed the 'destroy the nhs' stories were true, but I'm not sure thats the case at all. I'm not really clear about its wider impact.
Interestingly, some of the sticking points seem to be on the US watering down our eco legislation. Seeing how don and others are dead against EU eco measures like recycling bins etc., I wondered if the US watering down those bits of TTIP might infact appeal to them?
powerstroke said:
There really is no hope for you , UKIP are not and have never called for isolationist policys on that alone you have proved yourself to be a moron ,
sorry but you have only come to argue and time after time nothing useful to contribute.....
they are isolationist policiessorry but you have only come to argue and time after time nothing useful to contribute.....
they just dress them up in a frock and pretend they aren't
this works on some - typically those falling under the insult in your post
Isolationism is a category of foreign policies institutionalized by leaders who asserted that their nations' best interests were best served by keeping the affairs of other countries at a distance.
///ajd said:
powerstroke said:
There really is no hope for you , UKIP are not and have never called for isolationist policys on that alone you have proved yourself to be a moron ,
sorry but you have only come to argue and time after time nothing useful to contribute.....
they are isolationist policiessorry but you have only come to argue and time after time nothing useful to contribute.....
they just dress them up in a frock and pretend they aren't
this works on some - typically those falling under the insult in your post
Isolationism is a category of foreign policies institutionalized by leaders who asserted that their nations' best interests were best served by keeping the affairs of other countries at a distance.
Free trade
Equal policy immigration
Vs
Trade tariffs
Massive fees for access to a bloc
Immigration based on nationality
///ajd said:
Just trying to explain democracy as it seems many here fail to se the distinction between our own right to elections in the UK - where we are free to choose our own government who can do what they wish with respect to being in the EU - and what happens in the EU.
All you've done is state that we can leave if we don't like it. That's an element of democracy but it's not what I would consider a full democracy.Its like comparing us to a employee in a large company. An employee always has the right to resign if they don't like the direction the company is taking. That's a long way from having any say in the direction the company takes.
alock said:
All you've done is state that we can leave if we don't like it. That's an element of democracy but it's not what I would consider a full democracy.
Its like comparing us to a employee in a large company. An employee always has the right to resign if they don't like the direction the company is taking. That's a long way from having any say in the direction the company takes.
that analogy is spot on imo.Its like comparing us to a employee in a large company. An employee always has the right to resign if they don't like the direction the company is taking. That's a long way from having any say in the direction the company takes.
///ajd said:
Isolationism is a category of foreign policies institutionalized by leaders who asserted that their nations' best interests were best served by keeping the affairs of other countries at a distance.
In the case of the EU the distance is limited by durable elastic but increasing the stretch is a good idea given the spendthrift, undemocratic and control freak nature of what we're currently dealing with.///ajd said:
What specific bits of TTIP were they worried about?
Probably the bit where it is more secret and obfuscated from view of the population than the Holy Bible in the Dark Ages. That bit.Does that not ring a single alarm bell in your happy little cranium? Do you not feel that the whole thing looks and feels like some massive multinational carve-up of our future?
///ajd said:
Just trying to explain democracy as it seems many here fail to se the distinction between our own right to elections in the UK - where we are free to choose our own government who can do what they wish with respect to being in the EU - and what happens in the EU.
Most people posting in this thread are only too well aware of how democracy works (or should work),however it doesn't work like that when the overall governing body is the EU.We can indeed vote for which ever party rocks our own individual boat,but if the EU decide to pass laws that conflict with our wishes there is cock all any politician can do about it.
As to anything Cameron has negotiated in terms of betterment for the UK by being in the EU, nothing has been ratified or written into a treaty and will undoubtedly never happen.
You are seriously deluded if you believe the majority of what you write, sadly by the time you and many others like you wake up and realise reality, it will be too late.
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