The 'No to the EU' campaign

[FiF]

don'tbesilly said:

Most people posting in this thread are only too well aware of how democracy works (or should work),however it doesn't work like that when the overall governing body is the EU.

We can indeed vote for which ever party rocks our own individual boat,but if the EU decide to pass laws that conflict with our wishes there is cock all any politician can do about it.

As to anything Cameron has negotiated in terms of betterment for the UK by being in the EU, nothing has been ratified or written into a treaty and will undoubtedly never happen.

You are seriously deluded if you believe the majority of what you write, sadly by the time you and many others like you wake up and realise reality, it will be too late.

Totally spot on, as commented here and written for Leave Alliance here it's increasingly clear that many of those arguing for Remain don't understand, perhaps don't want to understand, how the EU works. It will be too late when they come to their senses.

[///ajd]

Digga said:

///ajd said:

What specific bits of TTIP were they worried about?

Probably the bit where it is more secret and obfuscated from view of the population than the Holy Bible in the Dark Ages. That bit.

Does that not ring a single alarm bell in your happy little cranium? Do you not feel that the whole thing looks and feels like some massive multinational carve-up of our future?

Not necessarily. I can understand why it maybe sensitive - not rocket science really.

I'm sure many here understand how commercially sensitive negotiations work - certainly plastering half completed discussions out in public is not usually a good idea during business transactions - could lead to all sorts of share price shenanigans. What makes you think this would be any different?

That doesn't mean I would blindly accept the outcome - but then I guess Nations won't either.

rules about how TTIP will be agreed said:

The 28 governments will then have to approve or reject the negotiated agreement in the EU Council of Ministers, at which point the European Parliament will also be asked for its endorsement. Individual countries have different rules on approving and ratifying the document. For example, Article 53 of the French Constitution states, "trade treaties can only be ratified by a law" passed by the French Parliament.

The secrecy does seem a bit over the top with the whole reading room and no electronic copies. I suspect that is more a reflection on how reckless and leaky some MEPs are etc.

In my business we encrypt all our sensitive data before it goes across the internet - I assume others businesses that value their IP & commercial activities protect their data in a similar way?

[///ajd]

wc98 said:

alock said:

All you've done is state that we can leave if we don't like it. That is an element of democracy but it's not what I would consider a full democracy.

Its like comparing us to a employee in a large company. An employee always has the right to resign if they don't like the direction the company is taking. That's a long way from having any say in the direction the company takes.

that analogy is spot on imo.

I think we're broadly agreeing then.

To recap:

a) That is democracy
b) We always have the right to bail out if we don't like the direction

We do have a say in the direction, but it will always be a compromise. If it goes too far, we can always bail.

Hey ho, we'll never agree on the relative merits of being in the EU - on balance I think its worth being in but I'm not saying it is all wonderful - far from it. There are always things you don't like about what govts do - even the ones you did vote for - and that applies to the EU too. The waste is over the top, too many pen pushers & MEPs etc. It should be more focussed on just the things that help the Nations work together.

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

wc98 said:

alock said:

All you've done is state that we can leave if we don't like it. That is an element of democracy but it's not what I would consider a full democracy.

Its like comparing us to a employee in a large company. An employee always has the right to resign if they don't like the direction the company is taking. That's a long way from having any say in the direction the company takes.

that analogy is spot on imo.

I think we're broadly agreeing then.

To recap:

a) That is democracy
b) We always have the right to bail out if we don't like the direction

It's something that can be held up as democracy when in fact it has clear deficiencies that remain hidden and unspoken without adding relevant details.

Also this 'always' in terms of the right to bail out, how will that operate continuously? Did you mean we occsionally get the chance to vote on leaving if we're lucky and even then the result isn't binding on the gov't?

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

It's something that can be held up as democracy when in fact it has clear deficiencies that remain hidden and unspoken without adding relevant details.

Also this 'always' in terms of the right to bail out, how will that operate continuously? Did you mean we occsionally get the chance to vote on leaving if we're lucky and even then the result isn't binding on the gov't?

Its always down to our government.

Our government could run a referendum every year if it wanted. How could the EU stop us? Did they have any say at all in this referendum? No.

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

It's something that can be held up as democracy when in fact it has clear deficiencies that remain hidden and unspoken without adding relevant details.

Also this 'always' in terms of the right to bail out, how will that operate continuously? Did you mean we occsionally get the chance to vote on leaving if we're lucky and even then the result isn't binding on the gov't?

Its always down to our government.

Our government could run a referendum every year if it wanted.

And could ignore the result.

///ajd said:

How could the EU stop us? Did they have any say at all in this referendum? No.

They don't need to try, see above.

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

It's something that can be held up as democracy when in fact it has clear deficiencies that remain hidden and unspoken without adding relevant details.

Also this 'always' in terms of the right to bail out, how will that operate continuously? Did you mean we occsionally get the chance to vote on leaving if we're lucky and even then the result isn't binding on the gov't?

Its always down to our government.

Our government could run a referendum every year if it wanted.

And could ignore the result.

///ajd said:

How could the EU stop us? Did they have any say at all in this referendum? No.

They don't need to try, see above.

But UKIP wouldn't, would they?

Just get UKIP into power and sorted - EU bashing 24/7 and quick exit no matter the consequences, brick up channel tunnel, job done!

That would be brilliant for some wouldn't it?

What about our democracy stops that from happening? Nothing at all. Just that the vast majority don't want that.


EDIT

I was joking about bricking up the channel tunnel, but just had a quick google on ukip and tunnel and ....

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/brick-up-t...

Gold.

Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 7th May 13:47

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

It's something that can be held up as democracy when in fact it has clear deficiencies that remain hidden and unspoken without adding relevant details.

Also this 'always' in terms of the right to bail out, how will that operate continuously? Did you mean we occsionally get the chance to vote on leaving if we're lucky and even then the result isn't binding on the gov't?

Its always down to our government.

Our government could run a referendum every year if it wanted.

And could ignore the result.

///ajd said:

How could the EU stop us? Did they have any say at all in this referendum? No.

They don't need to try, see above.

But UKIP wouldn't, would they?

Probably not, ask UKIP.

///ajd said:

What about our democracy stops that from happening? Nothing at all. Just that the vast majority don't want that.

It's not as though the term democracy covers everything.

There are shades of responsiveness and degrees of directness. The main problem isn't the type and level of democracy within the UK but the type and level of democracy within the EU.

There is now and will still be (after a Remain result) a lot of people who do not see any basis for politicians such as Barroso, Rompuy, Juncker and Tusk to have any say in what goes in in the UK. We can have a common market without interfering control freakery orchestrated by people we don't elect and can't boot out.

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

It's something that can be held up as democracy when in fact it has clear deficiencies that remain hidden and unspoken without adding relevant details.

Also this 'always' in terms of the right to bail out, how will that operate continuously? Did you mean we occsionally get the chance to vote on leaving if we're lucky and even then the result isn't binding on the gov't?

Its always down to our government.

Our government could run a referendum every year if it wanted.

And could ignore the result.

///ajd said:

How could the EU stop us? Did they have any say at all in this referendum? No.

They don't need to try, see above.

But UKIP wouldn't, would they?

Probably not, ask UKIP.

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

Article 50 would be invoked the day after the votes were in.

UKIP Manifestos said:

2016 Manifestos
...we have the decision of a lifetime to make in the EU Referendum....show your support for the independence and sovereignty of the United Kingdom by voting UKIP ... and voting to Leave the EU on June 23.

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

As I said, probably. How is a matter for UKIP.

When do you think UKIP will be in a position to do this? After a Remain vote?

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

As I said, probably. How is a matter for UKIP.

When do you think UKIP will be in a position to do this? After a Remain vote?

Ah, I see.

When UKIP overtake the other parties and become a majority.

Probably will never happen, but hey, thats democracy!

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

As I said, probably. How is a matter for UKIP.

When do you think UKIP will be in a position to do this? After a Remain vote?

Ah, I see.

When UKIP overtake the other parties and become a majority.

Probably will never happen, but hey, thats democracy!

One form of it; there isn't just one form.

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

As I said, probably. How is a matter for UKIP.

When do you think UKIP will be in a position to do this? After a Remain vote?

Ah, I see.

When UKIP overtake the other parties and become a majority.

Probably will never happen, but hey, thats democracy!

One form of it; there isn't just one form.

Not sure I follow, are you suggesting you want to change the way democracy works in the UK?

Do you think there is something wrong with democracy in the UK?

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

As I said, probably. How is a matter for UKIP.

When do you think UKIP will be in a position to do this? After a Remain vote?

Ah, I see.

When UKIP overtake the other parties and become a majority.

Probably will never happen, but hey, thats democracy!

One form of it; there isn't just one form.

Not sure I follow, are you suggesting you want to change the way democracy works in the UK?

Do you think there is something wrong with democracy in the UK?

Where did you get that idea? More commentary around things I haven't said, there's an epidemic today.

[///ajd]

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

As I said, probably. How is a matter for UKIP.

When do you think UKIP will be in a position to do this? After a Remain vote?

Ah, I see.

When UKIP overtake the other parties and become a majority.

Probably will never happen, but hey, thats democracy!

One form of it; there isn't just one form.

Not sure I follow, are you suggesting you want to change the way democracy works in the UK?

Do you think there is something wrong with democracy in the UK?

Where did you get that idea? More commentary around things I haven't said, there's an epidemic today.

it was the "one form of it" line - what point were you making?

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

turbobloke said:

///ajd said:

You think if there was a general election, and UKIP got a majority, they wouldn't take us out of the EU?

As I said, probably. How is a matter for UKIP.

When do you think UKIP will be in a position to do this? After a Remain vote?

Ah, I see.

When UKIP overtake the other parties and become a majority.

Probably will never happen, but hey, thats democracy!

One form of it; there isn't just one form.

Not sure I follow, are you suggesting you want to change the way democracy works in the UK?

Do you think there is something wrong with democracy in the UK?

Where did you get that idea? More commentary around things I haven't said, there's an epidemic today.

it was the "one form of it" line - what point were you making?

That if we elect an MP with our vote, the Party they represent elects a leader (at whatever time), that leader then toddles off to the EU and has a say in appointing a former communist megalomaniac to a role that makes EU laws, as democracy goes it's not very direct - see the degrees of separation involved, with the EU control freak not subjected to UK voters' will via their name on a ballot paper - and on top of that not very responsive as a UK general election happens only every 5 years. So democracy is in there but the power of EC ideologues to influence our lives is hardly worthy of the unqualified use of the term 'democratic'.

[Funkycoldribena]

steveT350C said:

I can usually see two sides to a debate but what is seriously going through remainers heads? Is it a reptilian takeover?
Aaa? Where did it go? Did they get to him?

Edited by Funkycoldribena on Saturday 7th May 20:40

[Vanin]

Funkycoldribena said:

I can usually see two sides to a debate but what is seriously going through remainers heads? Is it a reptilian takeover?
Aaa? Where did it go? Did they get to him?

Edited by Funkycoldribena on Saturday 7th May 20:40

The remainers have only one phrase they keep repeating like a parrot. "We must be stronger together" without any qualification.

Just look at USSR. No democracy, a communist dictatorship all those nations under one rule and still the whole thing fell apart. Even after all that time under enforced "togetherness" all the peoples of all the separate nations kept their identity and nationalism
The EU dream is really a nightmare.

[steveT350C]

The gravity of the situation concerning the loss of sovereignty that is denied, or ignored, by Remains and resident shills is neatly highlighted by the President of the European Commission, the executive branch of the EU. Here... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/05/prime-m...

Tax paying voters in the UK cannot vote him out...


@\\adj. What powers does Junker have?

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Controlling your borders is highly overrated, nothing to see here, move along. Who needs a decent education anyway? 35 or 40 children in class just adds to the diversity of the country and shows our solidarity with our European partners.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/07/migrati...

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 8th May 08:43