The 'No to the EU' campaign

[Likes Fast Cars]

fatboy18 said:

nearly threw a Brick through the telly when Obama said we would be at the back of the queue for trade deals....that bloke really is a tool!

And that's just his good point!

[Likes Fast Cars]

Going back to the point others raised a couple of days ago. The mad dictator reveals his hand more and more with each passing day, having just successfully managed to pressure the (democratically elected) PM from office (who is a long-standing friend and fellow Islamist of his, long story but it can be easily read in a number of news services) he is now ramping-up his drive to embed himself in power (a la Al Assad style) for as long as he can-

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-turning-back-f...


For those who are concerned about the headline "79 Million" Turks who would easily travel visa free to the Schengen zone (without any hard statistics but based on a straw poll), there are probably around 5Mn Turks who have dual citizenship anyway who can already travel / reside anywhere in the EU, most of whom are secular, western thinking Turks who have no time for the ridiculous political games and religion of the ruling (AK) party & Erdogan. There are also several million more who just want to get out of the country before it becomes, to quote a number of my work colleagues, friends and family members, "another Iran".

Turkey has no chance of ever meeting the EU membership criteria so I wouldn't get too worried.

[Likes Fast Cars]

For those interested, a bit more about the current machinations:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdogan-tells-the...

[Likes Fast Cars]

turbobloke said:

It's not as though the term democracy covers everything.

There are shades of responsiveness and degrees of directness. The main problem isn't the type and level of democracy within the UK but the type and level of democracy within the EU.

There is now and will still be (after a Remain result) a lot of people who do not see any basis for politicians such as Barroso, Rompuy, Juncker and Tusk to have any say in what goes in in the UK. We can have a common market without interfering control freakery orchestrated by people we don't elect and can't boot out.

Spot on. These (in a lot of cases) unelected overpaid public servants are set for life on the EU gravy train.
There is no true democracy in the EU, they don't even stick to their rules & regulations when it suits them!

[davepoth]

Likes Fast Cars said:

There are also several million more who just want to get out of the country before it becomes, to quote a number of my work colleagues, friends and family members, "another Iran".

Turkey has no chance of ever meeting the EU membership criteria so I wouldn't get too worried.

There are a lot of moderates in Turkey, which is why Turkey has been a secular state for 100 years. The bigger problem is that there are a lot of non-moderates too.

The EU has ridden rough-shod over a lot of their own process to try and get a quick fix for the migration crisis, which has probably just caused a longer term migration crisis but from Turkey instead of Syria. And Turkey now has the EU over a barrel because

Ask yourself this question - if Turkey is at risk of becoming a fundamentalist Islamic state, was it really such a clever idea to allow the (presumably) large number of fundamentalist Islamists in Turkey visa-free travel to the Schengen zone?

[FiF]

Likes Fast Cars said:

turbobloke said:

It's not as though the term democracy covers everything.

There are shades of responsiveness and degrees of directness. The main problem isn't the type and level of democracy within the UK but the type and level of democracy within the EU.

There is now and will still be (after a Remain result) a lot of people who do not see any basis for politicians such as Barroso, Rompuy, Juncker and Tusk to have any say in what goes in in the UK. We can have a common market without interfering control freakery orchestrated by people we don't elect and can't boot out.

Spot on. These (in a lot of cases) unelected overpaid public servants are set for life on the EU gravy train.
There is no true democracy in the EU, they don't even stick to their rules & regulations when it suits them!

Plus legal immunity from prosecution.

[Sylvaforever]

Ha! Scargil [yes that one] has just disowned lliarbour [how apt btw] leader Corbyn on BBC tv for Corbyns U turn on Europe!!

[Likes Fast Cars]

davepoth said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

There are also several million more who just want to get out of the country before it becomes, to quote a number of my work colleagues, friends and family members, "another Iran".

Turkey has no chance of ever meeting the EU membership criteria so I wouldn't get too worried.

There are a lot of moderates in Turkey, which is why Turkey has been a secular state for 100 years. The bigger problem is that there are a lot of non-moderates too.

The EU has ridden rough-shod over a lot of their own process to try and get a quick fix for the migration crisis, which has probably just caused a longer term migration crisis but from Turkey instead of Syria. And Turkey now has the EU over a barrel because

Ask yourself this question - if Turkey is at risk of becoming a fundamentalist Islamic state, was it really such a clever idea to allow the (presumably) large number of fundamentalist Islamists in Turkey visa-free travel to the Schengen zone?

Your first paragraph hits a real nerve with me; I get fed up hearing people in Turkey (including secularists) refer to turkey as a "Muslim" country when it is in fact a secular country (as is Australia, UK, USA, etc.). The number of times I have to remind my Turkish colleagues and friends that "no, you are living in a secular state remember".
In fact most of my moderate friends wish for the days of 100 years ago when there was a greater ethnic & religious mix, as one of them said to me a few months back "the country was much better when we had majority Christians in Istanbul and other parts of the country" - of course he was referring to historical facts and not speaking from first-hand experience!

Second paragraph also highlights a big problem, one which many people are not aware. Example: research done last tear shows 11% of Turks agree with ISIL and sympathise with them, and would not report a known Islamist even if they are about to commit an atrocity on Turkish soil. Over 70% of Turks do not favour / approve of a member of their family marrying someone with a different political &/or religious belief.

As for visa free travel: it has to be one of the most stupid decisions taken by the EU in recent years. Hang on, no that's right is it? It is we (the UK and European law-abiding citizens who want a peaceful life free of prejudice and conflict) are all wrong to be "racist" and not to welcome these people who want to impose their values on us all no matter what the cost, and call us racists (& Islamaphobes) when we want to preserve our heritage and culture.

I say the sooner the UK gets out of the EU, the better.

[mph1977]

Likes Fast Cars said:

<snip>
As for visa free travel: it has to be one of the most stupid decisions taken by the EU in recent years. Hang on, no that's right is it? It is we (the UK and European law-abiding citizens who want a peaceful life free of prejudice and conflict) are all wrong to be "racist" and not to welcome these people who want to impose their values on us all no matter what the cost, and call us racists (& Islamaphobes) when we want to preserve our heritage and culture.
.

Visa free travel != the right to live and work somewhere ...

[FiF]

Visa free travel, without any system of control, no means of knowing who has overstayed, no means of sharing information between nations. Yep, considering the circumstances, it is not a very sensible decision.

[Sam All]

FiF said:

Visa free travel, without any system of control, no means of knowing who has overstayed, no means of sharing information between nations. Yep, considering the circumstances, it is not a very sensible decision.

Abyss goes on without visa free travel - will be open season afterwards. Daft and dafter.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

To Brexit or not.

Well worth a read. Zerohedge, if you avoid the hysterical articles, there are some thought provoking parts.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-08/brexit-or...

An older telegraph article, very applicable today, especially since Obama's intervention.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-07/russia-ch...

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 8th May 18:56

[Likes Fast Cars]

mph1977 said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

<snip>
As for visa free travel: it has to be one of the most stupid decisions taken by the EU in recent years. Hang on, no that's right is it? It is we (the UK and European law-abiding citizens who want a peaceful life free of prejudice and conflict) are all wrong to be "racist" and not to welcome these people who want to impose their values on us all no matter what the cost, and call us racists (& Islamaphobes) when we want to preserve our heritage and culture.
.

Visa free travel != the right to live and work somewhere ...

The right to live and work is not part of it AFAIK, it is only for no more than xx days in a 6 months / year period (or similar) for holidays, etc.

The Turkish system is crazy, even as a resident you still need a WP and the process is a right pain in the arse. Given the current economic situation (and blatant nationalism) the Turks won't agree to relaxing the "right to work" provision anytime soon.

[mph1977]

Likes Fast Cars said:

mph1977 said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

<snip>
As for visa free travel: it has to be one of the most stupid decisions taken by the EU in recent years. Hang on, no that's right is it? It is we (the UK and European law-abiding citizens who want a peaceful life free of prejudice and conflict) are all wrong to be "racist" and not to welcome these people who want to impose their values on us all no matter what the cost, and call us racists (& Islamaphobes) when we want to preserve our heritage and culture.
.

Visa free travel != the right to live and work somewhere ...

The right to live and work is not part of it AFAIK, it is only for no more than xx days in a 6 months / year period (or similar) for holidays, etc.

The Turkish system is crazy, even as a resident you still need a WP and the process is a right pain in the arse. Given the current economic situation (and blatant nationalism) the Turks won't agree to relaxing the "right to work" provision anytime soon.

however the out campaign are implying visa free travel Schengen - Turkey means that we (the UK) will be flooded with Turks exercising the four freedoms ... and they tak aobut remain using 'project fear' ...

[brenflys777]

I agree that Turkey can't meet the criteria to join the EU:

Likes Fast Cars said:

Turkey has no chance of ever meeting the EU membership criteria so I wouldn't get too worried.

However, I am concerned about Turkish membership, because as you also said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

There is no true democracy in the EU, they don't even stick to their rules & regulations when it suits them!

[Likes Fast Cars]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

To Brexit or not.

Well worth a read. Zerohedge, if you avoid the hysterical articles, has some insightful articles.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-08/brexit-or...

An older telegraph article, very applicable today.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-07/russia-ch...

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 8th May 18:48

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 8th May 18:48

Interesting read thanks for sharing.

[Likes Fast Cars]

mph1977 said:

however the out campaign are implying visa free travel Schengen - Turkey means that we (the UK) will be flooded with Turks exercising the four freedoms ... and they tak aobut remain using 'project fear' ...

TBH I'm not sure how it will end up in practice, what I understand at present though is Turks will still need to apply for a separate visa to visit the UK.

[mph1977]

Likes Fast Cars said:

mph1977 said:

however the out campaign are implying visa free travel Schengen - Turkey means that we (the UK) will be flooded with Turks exercising the four freedoms ... and they tak aobut remain using 'project fear' ...

TBH I'm not sure how it will end up in practice, what I understand at present though is Turks will still need to apply for a separate visa to visit the UK.

exactly

existing arrangements in place ot travel to the UK

no four freedoms forthe forseeable even with Schengen area , yet the out campaign suggest there are 79 million Turks about to land on these shores and set up home

Out campaign is F,U,D

Fear - jingoistic stuff and less than truthful statements
Uncertainty - not admittign that everythign their sweep aside as 'we'll negotiate that' is in the gift of others, who generally hold most of the cards
Doubt - that they have got beyond Salmond style swinging swords about and yelling 'freedom' a lot

[Likes Fast Cars]

mph1977 said:

exactly

existing arrangements in place ot travel to the UK

no four freedoms forthe forseeable even with Schengen area , yet the out campaign suggest there are 79 million Turks about to land on these shores and set up home

Out campaign is F,U,D

Fear - jingoistic stuff and less than truthful statements
Uncertainty - not admittign that everythign their sweep aside as 'we'll negotiate that' is in the gift of others, who generally hold most of the cards
Doubt - that they have got beyond Salmond style swinging swords about and yelling 'freedom' a lot

Although there are at last 100 other reasons why Britain should Brexit... As I said some time ago, it will be interesting to see how it pans out and what the referendum result will be.

[gothatway]

mph1977 said:

no four freedoms forthe forseeable even with Schengen area , yet the out campaign suggest there are 79 million Turks about to land on these shores and set up home

Out campaign is F,U,D

I think the real fear/concern is that people have so little faith in the EU to stay as it is, or to allow the UK to keep its "defences". The fear is that the UK will not retain enough self-determination to be able to resist pressure to become part of Schengen.