SA80 replacement.

[rohrl]

[Skywalker]

rohrl said:

No Suppressor, red dot or optics?

6/10.

[Some Gump]

This thread is almsot as awesome as the synopsis of a Chris ryan novel.

[Tannedbaldhead]

Some Gump said:

This thread is almsot as awesome as the synopsis of a Chris ryan novel.

Was thinking that myself.

On a serious notes. All we need is a rifle soldiers can point at the enemy, pull the trigger, it goes bang and the poor bugger falls over.

A cheap Chinese knock off AK would therefore do the trick and judging at how expensive some of the rifles the Andy Ryan fans are posting pics of look could save our skint govt £500 a pop. 150,000 rifles procured and that's £75 million saved.

[Rogue86]

Mojocvh said:

Yeah seen that before, how much velocity does the round soak up manoeuvring

IIRC they (currently) only plan on implementing it in rounds as small as .50cal - so probably still enough momentum to take your face off, but it might leave bits of your neck intact instead. Which is nice.

[Regiment]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Was thinking that myself.

On a serious notes. All we need is a rifle soldiers can point at the enemy, pull the trigger, it goes bang and the poor bugger falls over.

A cheap Chinese knock off AK would therefore do the trick and judging at how expensive some of the rifles the Andy Ryan fans are posting pics of look could save our skint govt £500 a pop. 150,000 rifles procured and that's £75 million saved.

Apart from the fact that the cheap Chinese knock AKs don't have great accuracy over 100ms.

[telecat]

In Two Thousand and five the Unit price for the M4 supplied to the US Military was $1032 Per rifle. Today now they "own" the design the price is about $670. A Typical AK-47 Is between $450 and $1250 to civilians. A Romanian Knock off could be bought for $350 in 2008. It is reckoned that the AK in Africa can be bought for as little as a goat. However how good it would be is another matter. Those made by Kalashnikov Concern are sold to the Russian government at $160 which seems to be a considerable discount.

The AK has a Cycle of 6,000 to 15,000 rounds before needing a barrel replacement. It's fiddly and difficult. The M4 is in the range of 15,000 to 50,000 rounds. It's pretty easy to strip down and re-assemble too. It comes down to the M4 and Western rifles can be "fixed" and are easy to strip down. In many respects the AK is throw away when broken.

[Beati Dogu]

This gun should be the British Army's next main issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQpfQd1397E

telecat said:

In many respects the AK is throw away when broken.

I think that was the original intention.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

Aside from the fact that the 7.62 x 39mm round used in the AK has a far worse performance than does 5.56mm NATO, the AK (and the SKS) have a really nasty habit of 'slam-firing' owing to poor bolt/firing pin design.

For those not in the know, a 'slam-fire' is when the weapon goes off as you cock it.

The first time (as an RCO - Range Conducting Officer) I witnessed an AK slam-fire it fair scared the hell out of me.

[Some Gump]

[Tannedbaldhead]

telecat said:

In Two Thousand and five the Unit price for the M4 supplied to the US Military was $1032 Per rifle. Today now they "own" the design the price is about $670. A Typical AK-47 Is between $450 and $1250 to civilians. A Romanian Knock off could be bought for $350 in 2008. It is reckoned that the AK in Africa can be bought for as little as a goat. However how good it would be is another matter. Those made by Kalashnikov Concern are sold to the Russian government at $160 which seems to be a considerable discount.

The AK has a Cycle of 6,000 to 15,000 rounds before needing a barrel replacement. It's fiddly and difficult. The M4 is in the range of 15,000 to 50,000 rounds. It's pretty easy to strip down and re-assemble too. It comes down to the M4 and Western rifles can be "fixed" and are easy to strip down. In many respects the AK is throw away when broken.

So for a whole life cost perspective the AK is not the cheapest option. Question then is, what is?

[dai1983]

Rogue86 said:

I don't know many people who have had issues with the latest L85s though, other than the fact that they weigh a lot more than US rifles especially with a UGL they're a good system to operate.

It's not the weight with a UGL but rather where the weight is. Out at the end of the rifle and away from the body but no problem when you are prone or supported but standing it's less than ideal!

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

Having said that, firing from alternative positions, the weapon is very quick into the aim, so much so that I am not convinced by the need for a pickatinny/Weaver/NAR rail and the fore-grip.

In the prone the bi pods legs are very useful especially for getting a good zero. In other positions using the down grip properly (ie not holding it at the bottom so the wepon swings about) you feel tighter but less strained than using the old handguard.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

Fair enough.

In the alternate positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, squatting) I think it was us (those using the L85A1 in International Competition) in the early '90s that started using the 'Weaver' grip. That is to say holding the pistol grip with both hands in the same way one would hold a pistol, with the left elbow supported by the ammunition pouch.

That is now an approved grip (according to the Pam 5 and Pam 5c) and it is what I teach my Cadets to use.

As a result, personally, I would not want the new style vertical forward grip.

[Ayahuasca]

Time to bring back the tried and tested bang stick, the 'right arm of the free world'.

[telecat]

Ayahuasca said:

Time to bring back the tried and tested bang stick, the 'right arm of the free world'.

Essentially buy the FN SCAR-H would be the replacement for the SLR. Generally it is considered pretty reliable and it is also available as a 5.56 SCAR-L.

[cirian75]

telecat said:

Ayahuasca said:

Time to bring back the tried and tested bang stick, the 'right arm of the free world'.

Essentially buy the FN SCAR-H would be the replacement for the SLR. Generally it is considered pretty reliable and it is also available as a 5.56 SCAR-L.

Yup




The SCAR-L would be a great move, and easy swap to 6.8spc if it happens

[Kaelic]

SCAR-H has been in use with US Special operations guys in afghan despite not being adopted properly and apparently is a fantastic thing.

I always liked the 416/417 family

[DMN]

Surely the most sensible option (and probably one of the cheapest.....) is to buy the Canadian C8 Carbine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Canada_C7_rifle

Its already in service with several branches of the Armed Forces including the SAS and Royal Marines.

[Lefty]

DMN said:

Surely the most sensible option (and probably one of the cheapest.....) is to buy the Canadian C8 Carbine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Canada_C7_rifle

Its already in service with several branches of the Armed Forces including the SAS and Royal Marines.

Not if they're trying to move away from 5.56 it's not.

[telecat]

DMN said:

Surely the most sensible option (and probably one of the cheapest.....) is to buy the Canadian C8 Carbine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Canada_C7_rifle

Its already in service with several branches of the Armed Forces including the SAS and Royal Marines.

Good in close quarters but that's the problem. The L85A3 is a better distance weapon which is where the M4 series fall down. The accuracy and "punch" just are not as good going out over 300M. Basically US forces Bought the SCAR-H and UK the LMT LM308mws or L129A1 to supplement the M4/SA80.

The idea is to replace both. the 5.56 is just not powerful enough whereas the 7.62 is too heavy for general Infantry use and rifles using it are not suited to close combat. It's why 6mm to 7mm ammo is being looked at.