Caitlyn Jenner - Decline and Fall of the American Empire

[anonymous-user]

I agree with those that say they whole Kardashian thing is just a complete circus/zoo. It's like a freak show, but terrifyingly far from being repulsed by it, many younger people are actually attracted to that lifestyle which is frankly worrying!

The whole lot of them have made an entire lifestyle out of pissing the late Robert Kardashians hard earned money up the wall in ridiculous fashion until they became 'famous' themselves. It's pathetic.

[iphonedyou]

NinjaPower said:

I agree with those that say they whole Kardashian thing is just a complete circus/zoo. It's like a freak show, but terrifyingly far from being repulsed by it, many younger people are actually attracted to that lifestyle which is frankly worrying!

The whole lot of them have made an entire lifestyle out of pissing the late Robert Kardashians hard earned money up the wall in ridiculous fashion until they became 'famous' themselves. It's pathetic.

I'm not sure what they've done is pissing money up the wall, given the end result.

[anonymous-user]

iphonedyou said:

I'm not sure what they've done is pissing money up the wall, given the end result.

Well that is true...

[hornet]

FredClogs said:

The weird thing as far as I understand from snippets I've come across (no pun intended) is that he wants to transition to a women but remains sexually interested in women, so he's effectively transitioning to be a lesbian - is this normal?

Friend of mine has gone through M to F gender reassignment and has remained sexually involved with women, so I don't think it's especially unusual. From speaking to her about it, the sexual identity and gender identity are separate aspects. She has always found women attractive, but that sexuality was previously wrapped up in a body that didn't match how she perceived her gender. Her comment, only half in jest, is she was simply a "lesbian trapped in a man's body".

I'll confess I had zero idea who Bruce / Caitlyn Jenner was, so no real thoughts on the US cultural significance beyond perhaps simply the increasing acceptance of transgender people generally in a culture that can be both heavily macho and also very conservative? Having watched my friend transition, I can't believe it's something you'd do as a career move, even somewhere as image and celebrity obsessed as the US.

ETA - I don't quite see how any of the above can be framed as the decline of an empire any more than the legalistion of gay marriage in Ireland? The celebrity element of it might grate, but having a positive, confident transgender role model will undoubtedly help many ordinary people going through similar issues.

Edited by hornet on Tuesday 2nd June 14:14

[FredClogs]

hornet said:

ETA - I don't quite see how any of the above can be framed as the decline of an empire any more than the legalistion of gay marriage in Ireland? The celebrity element of it might grate, but having a positive, confident transgender role model will undoubtedly help many ordinary people going through similar issues.

Edited by hornet on Tuesday 2nd June 14:14

Kelly Maloney's journey should be an inspiration and has certainly help shed light on this issue, hopefully these things will become more socially acceptable.

I think the idea that this represents some kind of decadence I think is tied to the idea that some humans (in the developed world) live a life at the pinnacle of Maslow's pyramid, there needs are met and the final act in completing self actualization, which is of course counter to the "idea" of good society to some, to some it's an anathema that people can be selfish and be good citizens, as in Rome the self actualization of the few wealthy citizens of Rome led them to take their eye of the defence from the hordes of savages who were acting on group goals. I'm not sure I agree entirely but it's an interesting thing to consider. The dream of some kind of post biological human utopia where people have complete choice and control over their physical biology may be technological possible but cultural and socially I think it would be a frightening prospect.

[Tuna]

It seems to me that America, for all it's freedoms, actually puts more store in 'social etiquette' than Europe. Everyone has their place and role.

Then they get their knickers in a twist when they have a black president or a transsexual on the cover of a magazine. Or a black transsexual.

[anonymous-user]

Tuna said:

It seems to me that America, for all it's freedoms, actually puts more store in 'social etiquette' than Europe. Everyone has their place and role.

Then they get their knickers in a twist when they have a black president or a transsexual on the cover of a magazine. Or a black transsexual.

It's utterly bizarre isn't it?

A country of really odd contrasts.

They are easily the biggest producers of filthy videos in the world, by a long way, but show a boob on national TV and the whole nation goes absolutely mental and people are fired.

[4v6]

FredClogs said:

Kelly Maloney's journey should be an inspiration and has certainly help shed light on this issue, hopefully these things will become more socially acceptable.

Erm, why? Whats so great about being abnormal? (and i mean that in the nicest possible way).
Besides, "kelly" is still genetically a man called Frank so no matter how many hormones he takes or bits he had chopped about he will reamin that way until nature extinguishes his existence.
Whats so bloody "inspirational" about that. Do Tell.

FredClogs said:

I think the idea that this represents some kind of decadence I think is tied to the idea that some humans (in the developed world) live a life at the pinnacle of Maslow's pyramid, there needs are met and the final act in completing self actualization, which is of course counter to the "idea" of good society to some, to some it's an anathema that people can be selfish and be good citizens, as in Rome the self actualization of the few wealthy citizens of Rome led them to take their eye of the defence from the hordes of savages who were acting on group goals. I'm not sure I agree entirely but it's an interesting thing to consider. The dream of some kind of post biological human utopia where people have complete choice and control over their physical biology may be technological possible but cultural and socially I think it would be a frightening prospect.

Crikey that sounds just like something Sir Humphrey might say.

Explain in laymans terms for a prole like me just what you were attempting to convey please, in english perchance.

[Tuna]

4v6 said:

Erm, why? Whats so great about being abnormal? (and i mean that in the nicest possible way).
Besides, "kelly" is still genetically a man called Frank so no matter how many hormones he takes or bits he had chopped about he will reamin that way until nature extinguishes his existence.
Whats so bloody "inspirational" about that. Do Tell.

I don't think you do mean it in the nicest possible way. At all.

Having worked with a number of transgendered colleagues, I've learned it's not black and white and that genes can pull some pretty mean tricks. These people face challenges every day (often from ignorant people who over use quotation marks) and some are driven to suicide by the experience of not fitting in to the convenient labels of male and female, or having brains at odds with their bodies.

You could at least show them the respect of using the pronouns they would prefer. Kelly may not be a person you care for, and her story might not be to your liking, but she dared to risk public humiliation and ridicule to deal with her personal situation and that deserves a little understanding.

[krunchkin]

To quote a friend of mine - " I find it somewhat medieval to deal with people with clear mental health issues by chopping their cocks off"

[FredClogs]

4v6 said:

FredClogs said:

Kelly Maloney's journey should be an inspiration and has certainly help shed light on this issue, hopefully these things will become more socially acceptable.

Erm, why? Whats so great about being abnormal? (and i mean that in the nicest possible way).
Besides, "kelly" is still genetically a man called Frank so no matter how many hormones he takes or bits he had chopped about he will reamin that way until nature extinguishes his existence.
Whats so bloody "inspirational" about that.

Unfortunately for you there is some disparity between what you think and the actual fact of the matter, she (Kelly Maloney) is a women and will die a women.

As they say, genetically speaking we're all 97% chimpanzee, some possibly more than others...

Edited by FredClogs on Tuesday 2nd June 21:42

[Paddymcc]

If I had to spend quite a chunk of my life with that Kardashian family I'd probably want to chop my dick off too.

[CAPP0]

jdw1234 said:

Why hasn't he spelt it Kaitlyn?

I asked this question of MrsC, who, despite being an intelligent, well-balanced human being, follows the drivelling fakery of the Kardashian family religiously (in fact I asked why it wasn't spelt Khaitlyn) and apparently it is because he/she wants to distance him/herself from that lot.

[Derek Smith]

Tuna said:

I don't think you do mean it in the nicest possible way. At all.

Having worked with a number of transgendered colleagues, I've learned it's not black and white and that genes can pull some pretty mean tricks. These people face challenges every day (often from ignorant people who over use quotation marks) and some are driven to suicide by the experience of not fitting in to the convenient labels of male and female, or having brains at odds with their bodies.

You could at least show them the respect of using the pronouns they would prefer. Kelly may not be a person you care for, and her story might not be to your liking, but she dared to risk public humiliation and ridicule to deal with her personal situation and that deserves a little understanding.

Thanks for that.

There was a fascinating talk on TED on modern research on genes and nature rather than nurture. As someone who was bemused by the subject, I have to say that much became clearer.

I used to go to evening classes with a lesbian who thought of herself as a man. Whilst it was a bit odd initially, it being my first close exposure to such a person, it didn't take long to accept her as a him, and in effect not think anything odd.

The text books I was taught from at school suggested that the Roman empire fell due to low morals and acceptance of homosexuality. No evidence was brought in to support this and I assumed it was something to do with not wanting to upset the children. Our history teacher dismissed the subject and I didn't read anything more about it - it's not a part of history that I find particularly involving - until years later in a book that suggested it was a sign of an acceptance of evidence. Sophistication in effect.

I think what will bring the USA into decline will be the moral majority pushing dogma and religion and ignoring science. Rather ironically, a religion that the Romans modified for the sole reason of controlling the population.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

The wife likes to watch this lot, though not as much as she used to so I've actually watched the episodes where he/she talks to them about going through the change. It was quite interesting actually.

Anyways, I can't remember where I heard it but a psychologist was talking about what drives certain men to go through this change and she reckoned (and having watched a bit of the show I'd agree) Bruce Jenner falls into the category of a man who essentially wants to create the ultimate woman.

Being such a narcissist his idea of the ultimate woman is essentially a female version of himself. That's it, pretty much. How fked up is that? So yes his sexual predilections may be still aimed towards women but essentially he has simply come to terms with the fact that no one out there will quite deserve his affections as much as himself.

He did come across as a strange character over the years his life was televised I found. An alpha male who had a strange habit of acting hen pecked when it suited him. He had an ultra competitive streak with his offspring too, continually wanting to beat them at any activity they chose to join him in.

Strange bloke all round I guess.

Anyway, for the usual piston headers who continually post "never heard of him/her/them" etc you're out of touch with most people in their late teens to early thirties if the attention this story has gotten over my social media is anything to go by

[Esseesse]

hornet said:

ETA - I don't quite see how any of the above can be framed as the decline of an empire any more than the legalistion of gay marriage in Ireland? The celebrity element of it might grate, but having a positive, confident transgender role model will undoubtedly help many ordinary people going through similar issues.

Have you read Fate of Empires by Sir John Bagot Glubb? If not, an interesting read.

http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2014/092...

[anonymous-user]

hornet said:

ETA - I don't quite see how any of the above can be framed as the decline of an empire any more than the legalistion of gay marriage in Ireland?

I think everyone is getting the wrong end of the stick here.

Think of what America was 50-60+ years ago.

They were the pioneers and adventurers of the world. Kids dreamed about flying rockets to the moon, breaking world speed records, building new cities and the worlds biggest skyscrapers, pushing the boundaries of extreme aviation and technology, inventing computers.... Everyone was living the American Dream where nothing was impossible and everything was air conditioned and super sized.

What do their kids dream about now?

The girls dream about having huge backsides, marrying brain dead rappers and making a sex tape for the world to see in order to cement their 'fame'.

The boys meanwhile are wondering how many steroids they need to take, and how much time they need to spend on a sun bed before they can appear on Jersey Shore.

And that's just mainstream America. We haven't even touched on the racial problems and the enormous 'white trash' and redneck underclass who see zero education and foul behaviour as a badge of honour.

I think that is what the 'fall of an empire' comment was referring to.

50 years ago it would have been Neil Armstrong on the front of a major national magazine. Now it's some moron from a reality TV show.

Or something

[aw51 121565]

FredClogs said:

Maslow's pyramid

What about Maslow's "hierarchy of needs"? Is that something else?

[4v6]

Tuna said:

I don't think you do mean it in the nicest possible way. At all.

Why would you say that? Thats your own predjuices shining through right there fella.

Tuna said:

Having worked with a number of transgendered colleagues, I've learned it's not black and white and that genes can pull some pretty mean tricks.

Id absolutely agree that genes do indeed play a part in this and that theyre as you suggest, "mean".

That being the case, if genes are responsible as you suggest they are, then shouldnt some form of genetic screening be taking place to prevent genes from inflicting such psychological/sexual/physical issues as being homosexual on its victims?
After all, genes are also responsible for other mutations and disabilities that are carried by that unfortunate person for the rest of their days and we attempt to screen as many of those out as we can.
As you say, many are driven to suicide by their inner demons so is it fair to burden a human being with such, just to massage your beliefs?

And before you or the usual screamers mention nazis, racism, phobias, eugenics, hate blah blah and so forth, Ive got no issue with people being the way they are and dont wish them any ill, but I dont have to agree with it just because youd like to celebrate them being sexually and emotionally conflicted, it sounds somewhat cruel and unfeeling to me.

Tuna said:

These people face challenges every day (often from ignorant people who over use quotation marks) and some are driven to suicide by the experience of not fitting in to the convenient labels of male and female, or having brains at odds with their bodies.

Once again you expose your own deep rooted predjudices whilst attempting to appear enlighted. Fail.
So you label me "ignorant" because I quoted you, thanks awfully for suggesting I (or my ilk whatever that might be) are responsible for driving them to suicide also, very gracious of you, simply because I dont agree with your emperors clothes utopian view of things.

Tuna said:

You could at least show them the respect of using the pronouns they would prefer.

Why? You say tomato I say tomayto, they dont have to alter their behaviour to please me Im damned I if ill change mine to suit them or you.
You appear to be less than willing to accept me for how I am rather than how they or you are.
The irony in everyone else having to adapt to what such as you think is obviously well lost on you. Bigot?

Tuna said:

Kelly may not be a person you care for,

His names Frank, not Kelly and I didnt like him before he decided to damage himself.

Tuna said:

and her story might not be to your liking,

Hes a she, you DO know that dont you?
Are you sure youre not confused?

Tuna said:

but she dared to risk public humiliation and ridicule to deal with her personal situation and that deserves a little understanding.

Hes not a she, never will be never can be, end of.

You can dress yourself up as a kangaroo if you want itll not make you a marsupial.
Understanding yes, Id agree with you but acceptance of something thats clearly hurting those its inflicted on shouldnt be celebrated like the idiot left suggest or I believe encouraged as a way of life, theres a human being, getting pulled one way or the other in the centre of your theory and fancy semantics.

Now, you can either accept me for how I am and practice what you preach or you can come back with some diatribe and prove me right.

[4v6]

FredClogs said:

Unfortunately for you there is some disparity between what you think and the actual fact of the matter, she (Kelly Maloney) is a women and will die a women.

As they say, genetically speaking we're all 97% chimpanzee, some possibly more than others...

Edited by FredClogs on Tuesday 2nd June 21:42

No the disparity is that you think youre right, the fact is youre wrong and you can do nothing about it.

Frank Maloney is a man and will die a man, do a genetic test on him and youd find what I wonder?

If Maloneys a woman as you seem to think, then I look forward to congratulating them on their first naturally conceived and born child.