Caitlyn Jenner - Decline and Fall of the American Empire
Discussion
4v6 said:
FredClogs said:
Unfortunately for you there is some disparity between what you think and the actual fact of the matter, she (Kelly Maloney) is a women and will die a women.
As they say, genetically speaking we're all 97% chimpanzee, some possibly more than others...
No the disparity is that you think youre right, the fact is youre wrong and you can do nothing about it.As they say, genetically speaking we're all 97% chimpanzee, some possibly more than others...
Edited by FredClogs on Tuesday 2nd June 21:42
Frank Maloney is a man and will die a man, do a genetic test on him and youd find what I wonder?
If Maloneys a woman as you seem to think, then I look forward to congratulating them on their first naturally conceived and born child.
FredClogs said:
WTF! SO you're saying a women who can't conceive a child is not a woman?
No. Thats what YOU said. Just now.I said Maloney ISNT a woman.
Maloney CANT conceive or bear a child.
But then you already knew that, an astute commentator such as yourself, you were simply doing the shouting and pointing idiocy to get attention, wernt you?
Silly chap.
FredClogs said:
I know half a dozen women who can't have kids.
So? Whats that got to do with the subject matter?Diversionary tactics wont work cloggy.
FredClogs said:
Do you have any awareness of how repugnant your opinions are?
Do you have any awareness of why you should accept them and myself for how I am?Missing the irony are you?
[sarc]Nasty little fellow with your narrow minded views....
4v6 said:
Besides, "kelly" is still genetically a man called Frank so no matter how many hormones he takes or bits he had chopped about he will reamin that way until nature extinguishes his existence.
I'm pretty sure names are not inherited geneticallywhy the quotation marks around kelly, "4v6"?
I'm not the biggest fan of 'gender reassignment' etc, it would be much better if people could be happier with their own uniqueness (or sameness, for that matter) but surely we can change our names if we want?
4v6 said:
FredClogs said:
WTF! SO you're saying a women who can't conceive a child is not a woman?
No. Thats what YOU said. Just now.I said Maloney ISNT a woman.
Maloney CANT conceive or bear a child.
Did you mean to say Kelly Maloney isn't a women because she can't conceive a baby or not? Or do you mean to suggest your statements are entirely without reference to each other, you just happen to say she isn't a women and she can't have babies as two entirely unrelated propositions.
The FACT of the matter is she is a women, legally and in the eyes of most right minded people and nothing you have to say can negate that.
To further the Chimpanzee argument I've always wondered if it is true that we share 70% of our DNA with the banana but then I come across people like you and my cynicism in the suggestion dissipates.
4v6 said:
FredClogs said:
WTF! SO you're saying a women who can't conceive a child is not a woman?
No. Thats what YOU said. Just now.I said Maloney ISNT a woman.
Maloney CANT conceive or bear a child.
But then you already knew that, an astute commentator such as yourself, you were simply doing the shouting and pointing idiocy to get attention, wernt you?
Silly chap.
FredClogs said:
I know half a dozen women who can't have kids.
So? Whats that got to do with the subject matter?Diversionary tactics wont work cloggy.
FredClogs said:
Do you have any awareness of how repugnant your opinions are?
Do you have any awareness of why you should accept them and myself for how I am?Missing the irony are you?
[sarc]Nasty little fellow with your narrow minded views....
Tell you what, here's a few you can cut & paste later.... ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Remind me... You were the one accusing someone else's post of not being in comprehensible English, weren't you?
FredClogs said:
I feel I'm at the risk of getting into an argument with an insane person...
Ohh insane as well, I AM getting a good collection of insults today!FredClogs said:
Did you mean to say Kelly Maloney isn't a women because she can't conceive a baby or not?
No I say Frank Maloney isnt a woman because hes genetically a man, whatever his name, whatever the surgery.FredClogs said:
Or do you mean to suggest your statements are entirely without reference to each other, you just happen to say she isn't a women and she can't have babies as two entirely unrelated propositions.
Of course they reference each other, Maloney isnt a woman ergo maloney cant conceive or bear a child.FredClogs said:
The FACT of the matter is she is a women,
Ha ha! Youre utterly barking. 
So if I put on a dress and call myself janice im a woman?
You silly bugger!
FredClogs said:
legally and in the eyes of most right minded people and nothing you have to say can negate that.
Ah, we're back into words. The legalities of it rather than the genetics of it.If youre representative of "right minded people" then Im glad Im not.
The question is though, why wont you accept me for being that way?
Not just a little prejudiced are we freddo?
FredClogs said:
To further the Chimpanzee argument I've always wondered if it is true that we share 70% of our DNA with the banana but then I come across people like you and my cynicism in the suggestion dissipates.
Now I know youve lost the argument. 
Kermit power said:
Oh you poor chap.... You seem to have got so carried away with the quotation marks earlier on that you've run out of little superscript vertical lines to insert apostrophes into this post!
Tell you what, here's a few you can cut & paste later.... ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Remind me... You were the one accusing someone else's post of not being in comprehensible English, weren't you?
Hop it Frog or Ill get the pig onto you.Tell you what, here's a few you can cut & paste later.... ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Remind me... You were the one accusing someone else's post of not being in comprehensible English, weren't you?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
This is probably the only sensible post to come out of the gender argument and subsequent derailment of the topic.One is arguing that mentally, legally and with regards to physical appearance, a man can become a woman.
The other is arguing that despite surgery, name changes and various other treatments, a man is never medically or biologically a woman.
They are both right yet continue to argue.
4v6 said:
Tuna said:
I don't think you do mean it in the nicest possible way. At all.
Why would you say that? Thats your own predjuices shining through right there fella.4v6 said:
Tuna said:
Having worked with a number of transgendered colleagues, I've learned it's not black and white and that genes can pull some pretty mean tricks.
Id absolutely agree that genes do indeed play a part in this and that theyre as you suggest, "mean".That being the case, if genes are responsible as you suggest they are, then shouldnt some form of genetic screening be taking place to prevent genes from inflicting such psychological/sexual/physical issues as being homosexual on its victims?
After all, genes are also responsible for other mutations and disabilities that are carried by that unfortunate person for the rest of their days and we attempt to screen as many of those out as we can.
As you say, many are driven to suicide by their inner demons so is it fair to burden a human being with such, just to massage your beliefs?
And before you or the usual screamers mention nazis, racism, phobias, eugenics, hate blah blah and so forth, Ive got no issue with people being the way they are and dont wish them any ill, but I dont have to agree with it just because youd like to celebrate them being sexually and emotionally conflicted, it sounds somewhat cruel and unfeeling to me.
The point here is that I'm not putting my beliefs on anyone. Having met transgendered people, they've been very eloquent about how they feel and it seems most find some form of intervention to be very helpful. For sure, the operation is not a magic wand, but most surgery is pretty crude (have you seen a knee operation?). The thing is, regardless of the root cause, being able to live the life they feel is theirs tends to make them happier. I'm not forcing that on anyone, I'm not saying that I can even begin to understand how they feel. I am saying that if that makes them happier and more comfortable then they deserve all the support they ask for.
As I understand it, the best treatment is to help them in some way. You seem to be from the school of thought that they'd be so much better if it were knocked out of them somehow, which seems to disagree with modern medical theories. I think in the Bible Belt in America some still believe that if only you could give those nasty gays a big enough electric shock..
4v6 said:
Kermit power said:
Oh you poor chap.... You seem to have got so carried away with the quotation marks earlier on that you've run out of little superscript vertical lines to insert apostrophes into this post!
Tell you what, here's a few you can cut & paste later.... ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Remind me... You were the one accusing someone else's post of not being in comprehensible English, weren't you?
Hop it Frog or Ill get the pig onto you.Tell you what, here's a few you can cut & paste later.... ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Remind me... You were the one accusing someone else's post of not being in comprehensible English, weren't you?
krunchkin said:
To quote a friend of mine - " I find it somewhat medieval to deal with people with clear mental health issues by chopping their cocks off"
Your friend doesn't understand how long the process actually is and what's involved.For me, I think it all depends on what identity you view as the absolute - physical or mental? What makes a person identify as one or the other?
As I see it, you have three potential courses of action :-
1) Do nothing
2) Medicate to ensure the mental identity fits the physical identity
3) Operate to allow the physical identity to fit the mental identity
Option one is clearly a non-starter, as it does nothing to solve the issue and simply perpetuates the misery of the individual. For me, the choice is therefore which of the other two options treats the individual with the most dignity and compassion, and ultimately is less risky and more likely to have a long term benefit. I take the view that the physical reassignment process is better understood and easier to achieve, so when the relevant criteria are met (and there are a lot), it's preferable to endlessly medicating someone or messing with their mental wellbeing to the point they're doomed to a lifetime of therapy and unhappiness, with all the societal costs that entails.
I've seen my friend go from a medicated, introverted shell of a man with zero confidence or motivation to a confident, motivated woman hellbent to catching up on life. I don't really care what the deep genetic wiring says, the different is night and day.
North West Tom said:
It must be tough for the kids. Imagine being 17/19 and your dad starts wearing dresses and make up, and you're expected to flick a switch and pretend it's a woman. I'd struggle to comprehend it.
This happened with the husband of one of my wife's mates. He had two kids under the age of ten when her husband decided to become a woman.From the reports I got, the process basically went from the wife telling him that he went through with it, he'd never see the kids again, to the kids telling her not to be so bloody stupid, because they'd rather have two happy mums than a miserable dad, to her then telling his family that if they didn't accept it and support their own son, then they'd be the ones never seeing their grandchildren again.
Sometimes, adults could do far worse than to follow the kids' example in these sorts of scenarios.
FredClogs said:
WTF! SO you're saying a women who can't conceive a child is not a woman? I know half a dozen women who can't have kids. Do you have any awareness of how repugnant your opinions are?
I think we have the NP&E Straw Man post 2015 sown up right here. The judges particularly liked the self rightious indignation shown toward an entirely fabricated opinion. Sterling work.
Nolar Dog...pobs said:
Hey 4v6, Transgender woman here (not nolar before anyone says!). Been reading this thread with interest, feel free to ask me any questions you might want answers to.
I have a question, how do you refer to your life before you became a women? For example, with Jenner he won a gold medal as a man in a male event. Does this now become, as per Wikipedia, she won the 1976 gold medal for (mens) Decathlon? If you compare it to the example of someone going from a Mummy and a Daddy to Mummy and Mummy how can he still be the winner of the 1976 male decathlon?I'm getting my flame proof suit ready, not try to be controversial / offensive, I'm genuinely interested.
pobs said:
Hey 4v6, Transgender woman here (not nolar before anyone says!). Been reading this thread with interest, feel free to ask me any questions you might want answers to.
Two questions:Whats a nolar?
And only do you find my postings on this subject repugnant?
I feel fredclogs et al bashing his keyboard to bits with his head believes Im rabidly anti, I can almost sense the disgust in his compositions that someone should hold an opinion other than his, which is really kind of odd considering the position he claims he hails from, ie liberal, tolerant and understanding.
The fact is Im not homophobic (thats a bloody stupid term!) or repulsed or even mildly shocked, let alone disgusted or hateful to such as yourself, indeed I wish you all the best, my position is clear as alluded to in earlier posts.
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