Is the USA in decline? A land of materialists and fakes?

Is the USA in decline? A land of materialists and fakes?

Author
Discussion

Murcielago_Boy

Original Poster:

1,995 posts

238 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I have ADORED the USA for years and years.
Loved so much about it, especially the supposed "go get em" mentality - the way it's supposed to back risk-takers - how you're not made to feel ashamed for achieving (or failing)- the supposed absence of class - the theoretical meritocracy it represents - the casual politeness and the big American smiles - the fact that this amazing nation DID elect a Black President (who hasn't done much TBH)... and so many other amazing things.
Indeed, I'm over there all the time - I've been the USA's biggest fan.

But recently, I've found myself not quite "understanding" the country. The infatuation may be ending.

It's hard to put into words....
..... I just get this feeling that too many of it's people are... using sitcoms/movies/TV as their moral compasses.. (sounds silly but... you know what I mean? smile ) a feeling that the smiles and politeness are a little disingenuous. The feeling that everyone is for sale...that it's about material success and that's it...this and what appears to be an addiction to OTC/prescription medication... It makes it feel like people are a "messed up" and living a lie...

That and the inequality as well - absolutely amazing. A huge proportion of the populace barely add up to $5 and even when you're out there, you hear NOTHING about them. You hear about Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Ackman or the Walton family (the latter 5-6 people who combined have net worth of the bottom 40% of America!!!)

I get this feeling that a lot of the people are deeply unhappy there and they're "faking it" and kind of being "influenced" by something (I don't know what) sold the American dream which they can never touch.... Social mobility is dead - it's Harvard grads kids of millionaires that are making billions today -not people "from the ghetto."

Also, something that makes me a little uneasy is that I feel that sex is being shoved in everyone's faces ALL THE TIME in the USA. Directly or indirectly (Same thing is happening here as well on this front too). Sex, porn and general smut... It's everywhere and it's not funny anymore.. I'm no prude - each to their own - but when I'm there, i just feel it's a bit OTT. I don't like it...

This all sounds kinda wishy-washy but as I said... it's a feeling - hard to put into words. Or maybe I've spent too much time in California and South Florida.... Who knows? Perhaps it's different in Colorado or Oklahoma...

I still love the USA but for the first time ever, I have my doubts about whether it represents the best way forward for a happy, peaceful and fulfilled society.....

Thoughts?

glazbagun

14,259 posts

196 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
To be honest I feel the same about London. I think it's just what happens when you have a place which attracts people who desire success. I don't think it's a brand new thing- American Beauty explored the emptiness of so much of the "success" and "happiness" of the American Dream.

Luke Warm

496 posts

143 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
America has been in decline ever since it reached peak oil in the 1970s. Massive levels of borrowing are now the only thing keeping the dream alive.




unrepentant

21,212 posts

255 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I live here and I don't recognise anything that you say as being close to the truth.

You talk about sex and smut being shoved in your face but the truth is this is a far less purient country than the UK. You can't even show a nipple on network TV or say the word st, a total contrast to the UK. It's also a way more religious country than the UK.

We have rich and we have poor, just like any country. We also have the super rich, just like every other country. The vast majority of people are in the middle and the middle classes generally have more income and lower personal overhead than people in Briatin and therefore more disposable income. We also have a lot more space so most people live in bigger homes with space around them, even modest homes are usually detached. So sure, it's a materialist country but it's one that doesn't have an all encompassing welfare state like the UK so if you want material things you better earn them yourself. Nobody's going to give you a free PC or pay your mortgage for you if you lose your job.

As for a fascination with celebrity culture amongst a certain demographic, it's no worse here than the UK. Don't forget "Hello" and "OK" are European and Simon Cowell is British..........


To suggest that Obama "hasn't done much" is to show a lack of understanding of the country for the past 8 years.

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Murcielago_Boy said:
I have ADORED the USA for years and years.
Loved so much about it, especially the supposed "go get em" mentality - the way it's supposed to back risk-takers - how you're not made to feel ashamed for achieving (or failing)- the supposed absence of class - the theoretical meritocracy it represents - the casual politeness and the big American smiles - the fact that this amazing nation DID elect a Black President (who hasn't done much TBH)... and so many other amazing things.
Indeed, I'm over there all the time - I've been the USA's biggest fan.

But recently, I've found myself not quite "understanding" the country. The infatuation may be ending.

It's hard to put into words....
..... I just get this feeling that too many of it's people are... using sitcoms/movies/TV as their moral compasses.. (sounds silly but... you know what I mean? smile ) a feeling that the smiles and politeness are a little disingenuous. The feeling that everyone is for sale...that it's about material success and that's it...this and what appears to be an addiction to OTC/prescription medication... It makes it feel like people are a "messed up" and living a lie...

That and the inequality as well - absolutely amazing. A huge proportion of the populace barely add up to $5 and even when you're out there, you hear NOTHING about them. You hear about Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Ackman or the Walton family (the latter 5-6 people who combined have net worth of the bottom 40% of America!!!)

I get this feeling that a lot of the people are deeply unhappy there and they're "faking it" and kind of being "influenced" by something (I don't know what) sold the American dream which they can never touch.... Social mobility is dead - it's Harvard grads kids of millionaires that are making billions today -not people "from the ghetto."

Also, something that makes me a little uneasy is that I feel that sex is being shoved in everyone's faces ALL THE TIME in the USA. Directly or indirectly (Same thing is happening here as well on this front too). Sex, porn and general smut... It's everywhere and it's not funny anymore.. I'm no prude - each to their own - but when I'm there, i just feel it's a bit OTT. I don't like it...

This all sounds kinda wishy-washy but as I said... it's a feeling - hard to put into words. Or maybe I've spent too much time in California and South Florida.... Who knows? Perhaps it's different in Colorado or Oklahoma...

I still love the USA but for the first time ever, I have my doubts about whether it represents the best way forward for a happy, peaceful and fulfilled society.....

Thoughts?
If you are judging the USA by California or South Florida, I think you have your answer.

Look further. The USA you want is still out there but you won't find it where you are looking.


toohuge

3,430 posts

215 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Murcielago_Boy said:
- the fact that this amazing nation DID elect a Black President (who hasn't done much TBH)... and so many other amazing things.

But recently, I've found myself not quite "understanding" the country. The infatuation may be ending.

It's hard to put into words....
..... I just get this feeling that too many of it's people are... using sitcoms/movies/TV as their moral compasses.. (sounds silly but... you know what I mean? smile ) a feeling that the smiles and politeness are a little disingenuous. The feeling that everyone is for sale...that it's about material success and that's it...this and what appears to be an addiction to OTC/prescription medication... It makes it feel like people are a "messed up" and living a lie...

I get this feeling that a lot of the people are deeply unhappy there and they're "faking it" and kind of being "influenced" by something (I don't know what) sold the American dream which they can never touch.... Social mobility is dead - it's Harvard grads kids of millionaires that are making billions today -not people "from the ghetto."

Also, something that makes me a little uneasy is that I feel that sex is being shoved in everyone's faces ALL THE TIME in the USA. Directly or indirectly (Same thing is happening here as well on this front too). Sex, porn and general smut... It's everywhere and it's not funny anymore.. I'm no prude - each to their own - but when I'm there, i just feel it's a bit OTT. I don't like it...

Thoughts?
I agree with all those points... especially the general smut. Perhaps I am getting old / more mature but it is strange that it is everywhere in US culture. Commercials on television for viagra, cialis and lady business things too. US sitcoms are getting pretty bad too, Barny Stinson for example. etc.

Randy Winkman

16,021 posts

188 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I fear the UK takes too much influence from the US and not enough from the better points of it's European neighbours. Though I do recognise there are good and bad points to every nation.

kev b

2,708 posts

165 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I don't recognise your "sex shoved in your face" scenario at all but all my time has been spent in SW Florida. No topless beaches or images in the media in FLA and people there seem to be horrified by even mild sexual content, horrific gratuitous violence is OK though.

I do feel that the media is even more shallow and less subtle than the UK and totally commercially driven.

My wife would have loved to relocate to the USA but whilst it all looks good whilst you are doing OK there is the huge cost of private health care insurance which negates most of the lower fuel and food costs, energy bills are creeping up as well.

Working hours are longer, holiday entitlement is below half the UKs and employment security is minimal, if you lose your job you can be on the street in a month no matter how well paid you were.

In my view the American dream is just that for most people.

Smollet

10,467 posts

189 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
America has been fked since JFK was assassinated .

unrepentant

21,212 posts

255 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
kev b said:
I don't recognise your "sex shoved in your face" scenario at all but all my time has been spent in SW Florida. No topless beaches or images in the media in FLA and people there seem to be horrified by even mild sexual content, horrific gratuitous violence is OK though.

I do feel that the media is even more shallow and less subtle than the UK and totally commercially driven.

My wife would have loved to relocate to the USA but whilst it all looks good whilst you are doing OK there is the huge cost of private health care insurance which negates most of the lower fuel and food costs, energy bills are creeping up as well.

Working hours are longer, holiday entitlement is below half the UKs and employment security is minimal, if you lose your job you can be on the street in a month no matter how well paid you were.

In my view the American dream is just that for most people.
Most people have employer provided health insurance so costs are not that high for most (I pay $110 per month). Also the ACA is starting to bring down costs and that will continue. Once you retire you move to Medicare so again costs are minimal.

Employment security is not quite as bad as you think. Sure, bad employees can be fired (which is different from the UK smile) but employers are on the hook for unemployment pay. The reality is good employees are valued as they are everywhere and looked after but it's easier for entrepeneurs to grow without the employment legislation that shackles you in the UK. Holidays suck, Americans work too hard. I take at least 2 weeks unpaid every year on top of my paid vacation as I can't get by on what they pay for.

Generally I think the standard of living is higher as most things cost in dollars what they cost in pounds in the UK, taxes are lower and wages are higher. Property in most parts of the country is a lot cheaper than the UK as land costs are lower.

Minemapper

933 posts

155 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I loved it so much I moved there right out of university, and ended up staying for 12 years. Been back in the UK for almost 8 years now, and not sure I would ever go back.

It's a very extrovert, yet very inward looking society. If it didn't happen within 50 miles (or less), the local news media won't report it. Forget about overseas, unless it's US troops somewhere.

It's quite puritan about clothing and behaviour, yet behind closed doors they're all sex mad. Very hard to gauge what's going on when you're used to UK women telling it like it is.

Business rules everything. If you're not part of the corporate machine, you're on the fringe. That machine will chew you up and spit you out when there's not much left. If you haven't been smart and planned ahead, well, good luck.

The gun thing. Oh the gun thing. Rational and logical people lose their minds when talking about the gun thing. Scary how well the NRA has done their mind wash on the population.

The race thing. It's there. All the time. Might not look like it, but it is. We lived in an inner suburb of Baltimore, in a very mixed neighbourhood. It was brilliant. Lively, exciting, full of life. Our white friends thought we were crazy.

I love America still, but strictly for visiting from now on, I think.

andy-xr

13,204 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I think your opinion of the US is in decline, the country is pretty much the same or maybe a bit better depending on where and when you put the needle in

I used to love it, now I'm not so bothered. The business side of it is a hard one to grasp well, but it's rewarding when it works out. The US looks at EU businesses as a bit crazy and probably has nice ideas but doesnt do anything for them, so they just pay lip service. They dont understand what EMEA is saying, so tend to nod and smile then go back to whatever it was they were doing.

I lived out of hotels for a while in California and got bored. The things I wanted to do I wasnt able to do, no history and no-one could really articulate anything other than the stuff they had drummed in at school, No-one's fault, just how it went. I could do other things, but they didnt appeal to me as much. Home comforts I guess. I never quite got the swiping of the card without a PIN thing though, and how everyone seemed to live off credit and had savings/checkings accounts. But that's just a cultural thing.

The biggest thing I found was that Americans generally feel self sufficient enough on what they're doing that they dont need anyone else's nose in their business, personal or other.

My boss emigrated out there and loves it, but he's a sun worshipper and likes the beach life with his family. Whole new world of opportunity has opened up for him

Foppo

2,344 posts

123 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Only had holidays in the States always had a good time.I mix with everybody I don't care about colour of skin or status.

My wife is British born and I am Dutch.There was always plenty to talk about to Americans about our history.


AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Friday 26th June 2015
quotequote all
I think I recognise your love hate relationship with it. It's brilliant in theory but flawed in practice. I think it's a polar opposite of the UK in this sense which is a mess on paper but actually on balance works quite in practice. Maybe it's like the difference between a modern internal combustion engine and a hydrogen fuel cell. The IC engine (Britain) is basically a piece of very old technology refined and improved by generations of tinkering. The fuel cell is far more efficient and logical on just about any measure but it has some serious flaws for actual use.

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Saturday 27th June 2015
quotequote all
Guam said:
Still love the place
The America you are saying has gone is still there
Get out from the major cities and tourist areas to find it
Spent a lot of time with friends in Rural New Jersey last year
It was awesome in so many respects.

I found no difference in the culture from when I first started going there 30 years ago with minor adjustments due to natural change due to time passing, broadly speaking it's as it has always been ??

Very much this, America is so large and diverse just about anything you could say about it could have an element of truth in there. But I have been there many times, and never found the people there
to be anything less than friendly and in almost all cases





Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Saturday 27th June 2015
quotequote all
Apologies my machine keeps sending off posts before I have finished them. But even in new York I never found any of the people there anything less than open honest and friendly (unlike some other countries I have visited)

eldar

21,614 posts

195 months

Saturday 27th June 2015
quotequote all
Minemapper said:
I loved it so much I moved there right out of university, and ended up staying for 12 years. Been back in the UK for almost 8 years now, and not sure I would ever go back.

It's a very extrovert, yet very inward looking society. If it didn't happen within 50 miles (or less), the local news media won't report it. Forget about overseas, unless it's US troops somewhere.

It's quite puritan about clothing and behaviour, yet behind closed doors they're all sex mad. Very hard to gauge what's going on when you're used to UK women telling it like it is.

Business rules everything. If you're not part of the corporate machine, you're on the fringe. That machine will chew you up and spit you out when there's not much left. If you haven't been smart and planned ahead, well, good luck.

The gun thing. Oh the gun thing. Rational and logical people lose their minds when talking about the gun thing. Scary how well the NRA has done their mind wash on the population.

The race thing. It's there. All the time. Might not look like it, but it is. We lived in an inner suburb of Baltimore, in a very mixed neighbourhood. It was brilliant. Lively, exciting, full of life. Our white friends thought we were crazy.

I love America still, but strictly for visiting from now on, I think.
I lived and worked in North Carolina 20 years ago, and would have agreed with the cast majority of your post then. Just add the weird religious stuff of the south, and the more explicit racist stuff.

Sounds like not a huge amount has changed. Still good for a holiday destination.


scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Sunday 28th June 2015
quotequote all
Minemapper said:
I loved it so much I moved there right out of university, and ended up staying for 12 years. Been back in the UK for almost 8 years now, and not sure I would ever go back.

It's a very extrovert, yet very inward looking society. If it didn't happen within 50 miles (or less), the local news media won't report it. Forget about overseas, unless it's US troops somewhere.

It's quite puritan about clothing and behaviour, yet behind closed doors they're all sex mad. Very hard to gauge what's going on when you're used to UK women telling it like it is.

Business rules everything. If you're not part of the corporate machine, you're on the fringe. That machine will chew you up and spit you out when there's not much left. If you haven't been smart and planned ahead, well, good luck.

The gun thing. Oh the gun thing. Rational and logical people lose their minds when talking about the gun thing. Scary how well the NRA has done their mind wash on the population.

The race thing. It's there. All the time. Might not look like it, but it is. We lived in an inner suburb of Baltimore, in a very mixed neighbourhood. It was brilliant. Lively, exciting, full of life. Our white friends thought we were crazy.

I love America still, but strictly for visiting from now on, I think.
Nice summary. I'm American born and bred, but left for Germany many years ago. Would never return. The quality of life, community, and interpersonal relationships, the balanced approach to the environment and economy, and the history and culture are just too good in Germany.

I agree with many who feel the United States is unraveling. There are a number of academics who have been pointing this out for years. Morris Berman, Naomi Wolfe, Chris Hedges, Henry Giroux and others are worth reading to understand some of the root causes and what to expect down the road.

MrBrightSi

2,912 posts

169 months

Sunday 28th June 2015
quotequote all
Just made me think this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7OlBdFIxbk

It's great to read the stories and opinions of those who've been to America.

On the one hand as someone who's only ever seen america on the big screen, small screen and various print the place is like the best and the worst of everything.

I envy the go getting respect of success mentality but the keeping up with the jones stuff you hear of and the materialism just makes you wonder.

That video always made me think of it as just part of this big picture, would love to go one day.

xjsdriver

1,071 posts

120 months

Sunday 28th June 2015
quotequote all
Foppo said:
Only had holidays in the States always had a good time.I mix with everybody I don't care about colour of skin or status.

My wife is British born and I am Dutch.There was always plenty to talk about to Americans about our history.

I take it both you and your wife are white. Your experience of the US may have been different if you or your wife were black.