Is the USA in decline? A land of materialists and fakes?

[matsoc]

No, I don't think so, I enjoyed it everytime I was there and I believe it got better in the last 5 years while some od EU did not...

[Odhran]

Esseesse said:

You're allowed to own a handgun? Less restrictive than the rest of the UK.

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 29th June 15:40

Only as a personal protection weapon, usually only issued to ex/current police / prison service.

[Kermit power]

grumbledoak said:

Kermit power said:

Oh absolutely, and it's one of the most repugnant cultures we've ever had on this planet. Americans as a nationality (or should that be species?) are like something out of a sci-fi film where aliens have landed on earth an disguised themselves as humans, only to be exposed as the predatory animals beneath the veneer as the plot develops.

Dude, you've got issues.

Given your use of the word "dude", I'd better just check... You are aware that I was using a simile above, and not actually claiming that Americans are aliens, aren't you?

[skyrover]

Kermit power said:

Now look at overall murder rates.

USA is 111'th in the world... roughly the same as Estonia and Latvia.

[Kermit power]

skyrover said:

Now look at overall murder rates.

USA is 111'th in the world... roughly the same as Estonia and Latvia.

You make that sound like a good thing!

Here's a list of international Intentional Homicide rates.

Across 2010, 2011 & 2012, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, New Zealand, Australia, Spain, Portugal, Sweden & Switzerland all managed to consistently come in at 1 intentional homicide per 100,000 inhabitants.

Those violent, unruly ruffians the Belgians and the Finns managed to double our average at 2 per 100,000.

The US, on the other hand? You've got FIVE times more likelihood of being bumped off there as you have pretty much anywhere else in the "Western" world.

The strange thing is that you can take individual Americans out of America and they frequently become lovely people, but as a society in which to live or spend any significant length of time? Sod that!

[skyrover]

Gang violence mostly.

Not many "Mexico's" on European borders

I suppose you could count Russia, but than it's murder rate is far higher than the US

[Kermit power]

skyrover said:

Gang violence mostly.

Not many "Mexico's" on European borders

I suppose you could count Russia, but than it's murder rate is far higher than the US

And of course no innocent bystanders ever get caught up in that, do they? That's assuming they manage to actually make it out of school alive first, of course.

[Matt Harper]

The question that puzzles me regarding all of the contributors to this with their knickers in a twist is, "Why do you even care?"

If the US is such an abhorrent place and it's people such vacuous frauds, stay away.

I never really understood the sometimes very visible British trait of despising and belittling of all things that are not like Britain. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I left.

I encountered just as many phony, racist, narrow-minded, bigoted, lazy, entitled, ignorant, insensitive, poisonous, cruel and dangerous people during my life in the UK, as I have done here. As I'd expect, the number of warm, generous, intelligent, funny, positive, tolerant, inclusive and good-natured people is about the same too.

[unrepentant]

Matt Harper said:

The question that puzzles me regarding all of the contributors to this with their knickers in a twist is, "Why do you even care?"

If the US is such an abhorrent place and it's people such vacuous frauds, stay away.

I never really understood the sometimes very visible British trait of despising and belittling of all things that are not like Britain. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I left.

I encountered just as many phony, racist, narrow-minded, bigoted, lazy, entitled, ignorant, insensitive, poisonous, cruel and dangerous people during my life in the UK, as I have done here. As I'd expect, the number of warm, generous, intelligent, funny, positive, tolerant, inclusive and good-natured people is about the same too.

[Eric Mc]

Esseesse said:

Eric Mc said:

Northern Ireland has very, very restrictive gun laws - for blindingly obvious reasons.

You're allowed to own a handgun? Less restrictive than the rest of the UK.

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 29th June 15:40

Who?

Anybody?

[Eric Mc]

Odhran said:

Esseesse said:

You're allowed to own a handgun? Less restrictive than the rest of the UK.

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 29th June 15:40

Only as a personal protection weapon, usually only issued to ex/current police / prison service.

That's what I thought.

Ordinary citizens have no additional rights to a gun compared to the rest of the UK.

[Rude-boy]

unrepentant said:

Matt Harper said:

The question that puzzles me regarding all of the contributors to this with their knickers in a twist is, "Why do you even care?"

If the US is such an abhorrent place and it's people such vacuous frauds, stay away.

I never really understood the sometimes very visible British trait of despising and belittling of all things that are not like Britain. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I left.

I encountered just as many phony, racist, narrow-minded, bigoted, lazy, entitled, ignorant, insensitive, poisonous, cruel and dangerous people during my life in the UK, as I have done here. As I'd expect, the number of warm, generous, intelligent, funny, positive, tolerant, inclusive and good-natured people is about the same too.

America is a great Country and full of great people. Like the UK, the States have a very diverse and full spectrum of greatly differing people and cultures. There are things that the World can learn from America, there are also things America should have a long hard look at itself over. My personal experience of America has been almost exclusively positive but certain observations suggest to me that i would rather not live there unless i had a lot of time and freedom to chose which part of which state. Love visiting, have quite a few acquaintances over there who we hook up with over here or in LM most years. Would i wish to pledge allegiance to the stars and stripes? Not whilst i can hold a British passport and live in England thanks.

France is a basket case but at least you can get back to England with your car without foresight or wallet bashing. And the foods not bad.

[Murcielago_Boy]

This is getting interesting now and a few contributors are starting to get close to pinpointing my "complaint" (or better still my "hard-to-articulate-negative feelings") about the USA....
.....As Kermit referred to, it's that "saccharine sweetness" that I'm beginning to be weary of. It feels... well.. it's starting to feel FAKE. It feels like the manners and courtesy which are usually ever-present are just a load of balls... I don't feel that enough of the the people are "real" (for want of a better word)...

Great teeth, fake breasts, big smile, well dressed and presented and oh so happy in the Californian sunshine? But actually working around the clock for meagre tips, only to come back to a nasty apartment alone, while using a friends Valium to relieve the anxiety of pretending to be happy and having no "health and dental plan." Or the "happy" suburban family are that stretched to financial breaking point... "American Beauty"

......does anyone understand what I'm attempting (so poorly) to get at?

All of this is based on nothing I can pinpoint. Total Assertion. Total BS perhaps. But it is a unease I get...A FEELING. And it could be misplaced.
What I do NOT feel is misplaced is that I maintain that the media and TV programming etc is actually almost "toxically" prurient - although indirectly - sex sold through relentless pressure on image and presentation...because that's what matters right? That's how you get ahead and "get money"....

I don't know.... perhaps I just haven't spent enough time away from the coasts - the USA is still the one place in the world I think I could live outside of the UK, but I just feel like there's a veneer of presentation covering up a lot of unhappiness and real shallowness in this promised land.

....And that exists here too, but perhaps us Brits are just more up front about being miserable a55holes...

[unrepentant]

Rude-boy said:

merica is a great Country and full of great people. Like the UK, the States have a very diverse and full spectrum of greatly differing people and cultures. There are things that the World can learn from America, there are also things America should have a long hard look at itself over. My personal experience of America has been almost exclusively positive but certain observations suggest to me that i would rather not live there unless i had a lot of time and freedom to chose which part of which state. Love visiting, have quite a few acquaintances over there who we hook up with over here or in LM most years. Would i wish to pledge allegiance to the stars and stripes? Not whilst i can hold a British passport and live in England thanks.

Having been born and raised in the UK and now living in the USA (though not for as long as Matt or some others) I feel that I have a perspective on this.

There are good and bad things about every country. America has an enterprise culture that Britain simply does not. It's very easy to hire people here and consequently easier to start and grow a business. We have plenty of laws but do not suffer from the imposition of an over riding and complex set of laws imposed on us by unelected bureaucrats in other countries over whom our own government has no control.

We have guns, lots of guns. Personally I'd like to see fewer guns but I also know that law abiding white people are highly unlikely to get shot with one unless they go hunting with Dick Cheney.

You have VAT. We have sales tax. Your VAT is 2-3 times higher than our sales tax because the EU tells you how much to charge.

You pay 3/4 times what we do for gasoline. So you all drive Diesels or Euroboxes, we all drive cars with proper, big, V8's.

Britain has an all encompassing welfare state that is hugely expensive but means that the feckless chavs will never starve. Feckless chavs starve here.

People here expect to work hard and expect to be rewarded well for it. The girl who serves your steak at Ruth's Chris gets a base $2.17 an hour but probably makes $100k per year. Everyone who sells for a living gets no salary and gets paid purely on their own performance. If you want to be lazy you don't make much, if you want to work hard and excel your earnings are unlimited. Preofessionals are rewarded far better than they are in Europe.

You get a lot of holidays. American's expect to work hard (see above) so we get really crappy holidays. I solve this problem by taking a few weeks unpaid vacation each year.

You have a small and crowded island so space is at a premium. Land is expensive and so despite the lingering effects of the last property crash houses, even little boxes attached to other little boxes, are very expensive. We have a lot of space so land is relatively cheap outside major cities and housing is therefore more sensibly priced.

We do have issues with racism. Our racism problems tend to be a reflection of how African Americans have been historically treated over many generations. Having said that we generally have an integrated society of people who want to live here and see themslves as Americans. Immigrants are generally hard working people who buy into the American ideal and want to be here, their children even moreso. Anjem Choudary would not flourish here as he does in Britain where decades of ill conceived multi culturalism and weak politicians have left a couldron of disaffection and unrest.

Americans tend to be a little more insular than Europeans and are often criticized for travelling overseas less. But this is a huge country! A trip from the East Coast to the Grand Canyon or from Seattle to Florida is a bigger undertaking than the average European makes, probably ever.

You have cricket, we have baseball. Cricket is way better. You have football, we have football. Our football uses a funny shaped ball and takes three hours and we call football soccer. Both sports are brilliant and whilst the NFL has grown in popularity in the UK so "soccer" has really started to grow here. We now get just about every EPL game on the TV and more and more people are going to MLS games.

There are things I miss about England like cricket, fish and chips and the general lack of handguns but I know that if I moved back I would miss things from here and on balance I'd rather live here and visit the UK whenever I feel like it as I do now.

[dandarez]

unrepentant said:

Rude-boy said:

merica is a great Country and full of great people. Like the UK, the States have a very diverse and full spectrum of greatly differing people and cultures. There are things that the World can learn from America, there are also things America should have a long hard look at itself over. My personal experience of America has been almost exclusively positive but certain observations suggest to me that i would rather not live there unless i had a lot of time and freedom to chose which part of which state. Love visiting, have quite a few acquaintances over there who we hook up with over here or in LM most years. Would i wish to pledge allegiance to the stars and stripes? Not whilst i can hold a British passport and live in England thanks.

Having been born and raised in the UK and now living in the USA (though not for as long as Matt or some others) I feel that I have a perspective on this.

You get a lot of holidays. American's expect to work hard (see above) so we get really crappy holidays. I solve this problem by taking a few weeks unpaid vacation each year.

I had no idea of this, I always thought hard working Americans had plenty of hols. I recently returned from Mexico, which was frequented by many from the US - even more from Canada. Both wasted no time downing tequilas by the ***** load! Way in excess of what I could manage, and I wondered why the urgency? That's when I found out a week's break was the norm for them. Some seemed very cheesed off that I was there for a fortnight and that it was a 'norm' for us Brits.
There was a downside to having a fortnight though at this time of year. My legs and feet were blistered and hacked to death my mossies, at one point I looked like an American who'd had cosmetic surgery for alien legs!

[Mermaid]

US = Marmite.

[unrepentant]

dandarez said:

I had no idea of this, I always thought hard working Americans had plenty of hols. I recently returned from Mexico, which was frequented by many from the US - even more from Canada. Both wasted no time downing tequilas by the ***** load! Way in excess of what I could manage, and I wondered why the urgency? That's when I found out a week's break was the norm for them. Some seemed very cheesed off that I was there for a fortnight and that it was a 'norm' for us Brits.
There was a downside to having a fortnight though at this time of year. My legs and feet were blistered and hacked to death my mossies, at one point I looked like an American who'd had cosmetic surgery for alien legs!

There's no federally mandated vacation, the employer doesn't have to give you any. In my place we get 1 week after 1 year, 2 weeks after 2 years and 3 weeks after 10 years! I get 2 weeks (plus public holidays) which clearly isn't enough as I like to visit the UK for 2 weeks and go to Jamaica or somewhere in the winter for at least a week. I therefore just take unpaid and mix it in with my paid.

This is part of the reason why it's easier to start a business. The government doesn't tell you what to pay (apart from a tiny minimum wage), whether you have to give paid holidays, sick pay, even maternity pay. And it doesn't tell you who you can fire or what for. If my employer decides he doesn't like me he can fire me, he doesn't need a reason as long as I'm not being discriminated against. If he fires me without cause he does have to pay me unemployment benefit though. The reality though is that, just like in the UK, good employees are valued and good employers look after them.

[Matt Harper]

dandarez said:

I had no idea of this, I always thought hard working Americans had plenty of hols. I recently returned from Mexico, which was frequented by many from the US - even more from Canada. Both wasted no time downing tequilas by the ***** load! Way in excess of what I could manage, and I wondered why the urgency? That's when I found out a week's break was the norm for them. Some seemed very cheesed off that I was there for a fortnight and that it was a 'norm' for us Brits.
There was a downside to having a fortnight though at this time of year. My legs and feet were blistered and hacked to death my mossies, at one point I looked like an American who'd had cosmetic surgery for alien legs!

In my experience, the vacation thing is very varied also. There are fewer public holidays here than in UK and some of the less traditional US ones (Presidents, MLK etc) are only observed by federal employers. I work almost exclusively with very large corporations and they tend to be a lot more generous than the 10 days per annum that many talk about.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I get 20 days + statutories + personal days + sick leave - so pretty much what I had in UK. That said, my work days can be very long and my travel time often encroaches on my free time (weekends etc). I think the difference is quite attitudinal. Hard graft pays dividends here. I earn a lot more than I could (doing the same work) in Europe and living costs me a lot less. I know not everyone is that fortunate, but that is one of the main reasons I choose to live where I do (and I'm very fortunate to be able to work pretty much wherever I choose, such is the nature of my job).

There most definitely is a need to demonstrate commitment to work here, not by going in early and and not leaving until late, but more about being creative and happy to take in and react to the bigger picture. Work is more of a focus in life for many here, than it is in UK - some people don't like that - and that is just fine, but you don't get anything worth having for nothing.

Struggling to make ends meet is miserable anywhere - but particularly so here. The US allows failure, just as enthusiastically as it promotes success.

[anonymous-user]

unrepentant said:

Rude-boy said:

merica is a great Country and full of great people. Like the UK, the States have a very diverse and full spectrum of greatly differing people and cultures. There are things that the World can learn from America, there are also things America should have a long hard look at itself over. My personal experience of America has been almost exclusively positive but certain observations suggest to me that i would rather not live there unless i had a lot of time and freedom to chose which part of which state. Love visiting, have quite a few acquaintances over there who we hook up with over here or in LM most years. Would i wish to pledge allegiance to the stars and stripes? Not whilst i can hold a British passport and live in England thanks.

Having been born and raised in the UK and now living in the USA (though not for as long as Matt or some others) I feel that I have a perspective on this.

There are good and bad things about every country. America has an enterprise culture that Britain simply does not. It's very easy to hire people here and consequently easier to start and grow a business. We have plenty of laws but do not suffer from the imposition of an over riding and complex set of laws imposed on us by unelected bureaucrats in other countries over whom our own government has no control.

We have guns, lots of guns. Personally I'd like to see fewer guns but I also know that law abiding white people are highly unlikely to get shot with one unless they go hunting with Dick Cheney.

You have VAT. We have sales tax. Your VAT is 2-3 times higher than our sales tax because the EU tells you how much to charge.

You pay 3/4 times what we do for gasoline. So you all drive Diesels or Euroboxes, we all drive cars with proper, big, V8's.

Britain has an all encompassing welfare state that is hugely expensive but means that the feckless chavs will never starve. Feckless chavs starve here.

People here expect to work hard and expect to be rewarded well for it. The girl who serves your steak at Ruth's Chris gets a base $2.17 an hour but probably makes $100k per year. Everyone who sells for a living gets no salary and gets paid purely on their own performance. If you want to be lazy you don't make much, if you want to work hard and excel your earnings are unlimited. Preofessionals are rewarded far better than they are in Europe.

You get a lot of holidays. American's expect to work hard (see above) so we get really crappy holidays. I solve this problem by taking a few weeks unpaid vacation each year.

You have a small and crowded island so space is at a premium. Land is expensive and so despite the lingering effects of the last property crash houses, even little boxes attached to other little boxes, are very expensive. We have a lot of space so land is relatively cheap outside major cities and housing is therefore more sensibly priced.

We do have issues with racism. Our racism problems tend to be a reflection of how African Americans have been historically treated over many generations. Having said that we generally have an integrated society of people who want to live here and see themslves as Americans. Immigrants are generally hard working people who buy into the American ideal and want to be here, their children even moreso. Anjem Choudary would not flourish here as he does in Britain where decades of ill conceived multi culturalism and weak politicians have left a couldron of disaffection and unrest.

Americans tend to be a little more insular than Europeans and are often criticized for travelling overseas less. But this is a huge country! A trip from the East Coast to the Grand Canyon or from Seattle to Florida is a bigger undertaking than the average European makes, probably ever.

You have cricket, we have baseball. Cricket is way better. You have football, we have football. Our football uses a funny shaped ball and takes three hours and we call football soccer. Both sports are brilliant and whilst the NFL has grown in popularity in the UK so "soccer" has really started to grow here. We now get just about every EPL game on the TV and more and more people are going to MLS games.

There are things I miss about England like cricket, fish and chips and the general lack of handguns but I know that if I moved back I would miss things from here and on balance I'd rather live here and visit the UK whenever I feel like it as I do now.

Hmmm . You were doing OK but you've blown your own argument now...........

I just wish the USA would realise, as a nation, that it isn't always right and doesn't have the right to impose its views on the rest of the planet.

[anonymous-user]

Murcielago_Boy said:

...perhaps I just haven't spent enough time away from the coasts...

You could be on to something there. I've lived in Manhattan and Detroit and visited Miami countless times but the only places I really want to go back to are Colorado and Montana. I don't think anyone in those places knows, or gives a fvck, who Kim Kardasian is.