Another Tunisian Attack - Sousse
Discussion
blindswelledrat said:
MikeT66 said:
Karl Popper – German Scientist-Philosopher
“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them...We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.”
Religion is, in my experience, largely intolerant- after all, every religion believes (as it must) that they are right and the others wrong (apart from Buddhism - but that's not strictly as religion as such and therefore one I have more respect for), and that centuries old rules and thought must still be adhered to in the 21st century. That alone is not progressive, as I see it.
I used to attend a fairly evangelical church - and I've never met such a group of finger-pointing, hypocritical and judgmental people - even the old ladies attending the nearby Anglican church were dismissed as "not proper Christians - they're not like us." Children were being brought up in this environment - one I didn't think was healthy.
So, no - get rid of them all. Religious education should, if it needs to be taught (and I think it should in a normal secular environment) it should cover ALL beliefs.
In principle I agree with you.“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them...We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.”
Religion is, in my experience, largely intolerant- after all, every religion believes (as it must) that they are right and the others wrong (apart from Buddhism - but that's not strictly as religion as such and therefore one I have more respect for), and that centuries old rules and thought must still be adhered to in the 21st century. That alone is not progressive, as I see it.
I used to attend a fairly evangelical church - and I've never met such a group of finger-pointing, hypocritical and judgmental people - even the old ladies attending the nearby Anglican church were dismissed as "not proper Christians - they're not like us." Children were being brought up in this environment - one I didn't think was healthy.
So, no - get rid of them all. Religious education should, if it needs to be taught (and I think it should in a normal secular environment) it should cover ALL beliefs.
In reality, though, your lecture utterly ignores the billions of tolerant Muslims and Christians throughout the world.
You talk as though every religious person is an unevolved extremist and at some point you forgot that they are the minority and in fact it is actually a pointless speech because no normal person tolerates intolerant religious whatever their belief.
I'm sure that the vast majority of people in the world just want to get on with the struggle of their lives, unimpeded by the State or whoever, and many would accept other beliefs and ways of living, even if alien to themselves. But I fear religion does get in the way at times - less in the West now, as some shackles have been thrown off. Poor religious attitudes are still out there, though, condoned and taught by pastors, priests, rabbis and imams.
The church I went to had some lovely people in the congregation - however, when there was a spate of attacks at abortion clinics in the US, these people would not openly condemn the acts - it seemed as though although they themselves would not ever carry out such attacks, they were quietly supportive and not upset it was happening - someone else was getting their hands dirty so they didn't have to. That's not a moderate nor acceptable view in my opinion.
Also, the world is smaller these days, thanks to technology, and so cultures clash as people move around the globe... be it sexual predation in some northern towns in the UK, to people stripping off for a laugh on a sacred mountainside and causing offence to the locals. I understand you have a fair bit of experience in law, so how would you legislate for your Utopia? Everyone equal, and everyone's rights respected? What if those ideologies clash? It would be very difficult to work - hence my Popper quote - the only thing we should be intolerant of is the intolerant - then, perhaps, we might make some steps on the road to understanding and repecting everyone.
IMHO, let's start with those faith schools, and let children, the adults, politicians and religious leaders of tomorrow's world, understand and make friends with whomever they choose.
Edited by MikeT66 on Monday 29th June 17:44
One of the finest demonstrations of 'democracy' recently observed, imho, was for the Commons to reject UK military action against Syria and Bashar al-Assad (t
t though he is)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783
British ground troops in Syria?
Fighting Assad - flanked by ISIS - who were already in Iraq - and no support from Iraqi army.
Civilian casualties would have been astronomical - as would have been those of British troops - who have to stick to the 'rules of engagement' and keep gloves on.
t though he is)http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783
British ground troops in Syria?
Fighting Assad - flanked by ISIS - who were already in Iraq - and no support from Iraqi army.
Civilian casualties would have been astronomical - as would have been those of British troops - who have to stick to the 'rules of engagement' and keep gloves on.
Guam said:
Cheese Mechanic said:
I don't think its balanced to be too cynical about it, its obvious from footage that a number of the Hotel workers put themselves at serious risk. They would know, once the first casualties had been suffered , that the impact on their livelihoods would be huge, yet they they still persued the murderer
I have never had to face off somebody with a gun, I have with a knife, and thats scary, so a gun? Takes guts.
Awesome bravery on the staffs partI have never had to face off somebody with a gun, I have with a knife, and thats scary, so a gun? Takes guts.
Careful though positive comments about Muslims may require a flame proof suit
I havent seen adverse comments about Muslims standing up against evil.
What I would like to see is far more of the bravery that the hotel Staff showed the world. We need to see far more condemnation coming from the Mosque's.
I guess having Politicians and religous leaders trying to sort this out does not fill me with confidence .
What I would like to see is far more of the bravery that the hotel Staff showed the world. We need to see far more condemnation coming from the Mosque's.
I guess having Politicians and religous leaders trying to sort this out does not fill me with confidence .
johnxjsc1985 said:
I havent seen adverse comments about Muslims standing up against evil.
What I would like to see is far more of the bravery that the hotel Staff showed the world. We need to see far more condemnation coming from the Mosque's.
I guess having Politicians and religous leaders trying to sort this out does not fill me with confidence .
c.f.What I would like to see is far more of the bravery that the hotel Staff showed the world. We need to see far more condemnation coming from the Mosque's.
I guess having Politicians and religous leaders trying to sort this out does not fill me with confidence .
Ian Paisley (deceased)
The Pope (many times deceased)
inter alia.
Mermaid said:
Why do you object to what is in this country essentially an arbitration service that muslims decide to follow? You realise that christians in this country often seek chistian advice about marriage issues and the like too?croyde said:
The thin edge of the wedge was when those in charge started worrying about upsetting minorities like the banning of the Nativity Play at my child's school. Even some of the Muslim parents didn't understand that.
As no-one else has, perhaps I should point out the inconsistency between that and the view that all religion should be banned at schools expressed elsewhere on these pages. I suspect some people don't see the contradictionblindswelledrat said:
Or a joke, perhaps, that you think that people in lorries are more important that British victims of a massacre stranded abroad.
Idiot.
Said no thing such - you are clearly an irony bypass victim but you stick with your dumb interpretationIdiot.
oh Prick for good measure
Edited by HIS LM on Monday 29th June 19:48
Perhaps, once we can understand the feuds and persecution which took place on these Isles between Catholic and Protestant under the name of 'Christianity' - and how they were resolved (
) - then we may be able to dispense good guidance to those who have religious differences yet unresolved.
The 'gun' appears not to be the best choice (there will always be someone who holds a bigger, more effective weapon.)
) - then we may be able to dispense good guidance to those who have religious differences yet unresolved.The 'gun' appears not to be the best choice (there will always be someone who holds a bigger, more effective weapon.)
Ali G said:
Perhaps, once we can understand the feuds and persecution which took place on these Isles between Catholic and Protestant under the name of 'Christianity' - and how they were resolved () - then we may be able to dispense good guidance to those who have religious differences yet unresolved.
The 'gun' appears not to be the best choice (there will always be someone who holds a bigger, more effective weapon.)
so how does that link to a guy on a beach shooting people lying in the Sun or is that your aim to deflect from the discussion.) - then we may be able to dispense good guidance to those who have religious differences yet unresolved.The 'gun' appears not to be the best choice (there will always be someone who holds a bigger, more effective weapon.)
The Prime Minister has announced a minutes silence on Friday. Whothinks that it's a good opportunity for all the Allah botherers at Mosques around the country to stand outside and be filmed joining in? Maybe we could see Cameron and other politicians suggesting it as a good idea in the media in the coming days.
HIS LM said:
Arrange the following into a well know English phrase horse, stable and door
Assuming you're referring to 'shut the stable door after the horse has bolted' it's impossible to make that out of just the words 'horse', 'stable' and 'door'. You need all the other words too.Quite aside from that, staggering that you should find the two issues comparable.
Disastrous said:
Assuming you're referring to 'shut the stable door after the horse has bolted' it's impossible to make that out of just the words 'horse', 'stable' and 'door'. You need all the other words too.
Quite aside from that, staggering that you should find the two issues comparable.
Oh sorry another PH paedo - I mean pedantQuite aside from that, staggering that you should find the two issues comparable.
I'm not comparing the two events you are another irony by pass jockey
HIS LM said:
Disastrous said:
Assuming you're referring to 'shut the stable door after the horse has bolted' it's impossible to make that out of just the words 'horse', 'stable' and 'door'. You need all the other words too.
Quite aside from that, staggering that you should find the two issues comparable.
Oh sorry another PH paedo - I mean pedantQuite aside from that, staggering that you should find the two issues comparable.
I'm not comparing the two events you are another irony by pass jockey
it's not irony, I'm afraid. But well done for calling me a paedo for correcting your post. Appropriate response.Also, please try some punctuation so your posts are marginally less illiterate.
Third hand account from someone there as it happened. Apparently they were just leaving the beach on the way to the hotel and the guy was also throwing grenades about the place!
They ran back to their room, locked themselves in and only came out when the police kicked their door in. Apparently the aftermath was something of a bloodbath and they are both pretty mentally disturbed after the whole thing.
Bloody hell
They ran back to their room, locked themselves in and only came out when the police kicked their door in. Apparently the aftermath was something of a bloodbath and they are both pretty mentally disturbed after the whole thing.
Bloody hell
Mermaid said:
PM statement in the Commons.
Provide security forces with more resources
Deal with security threat at source - bombing in Iraq & Syria
Take on radical narrative, stand up for our values - identify radicalisation
Did he wave a piece of paper, saying 'Peace in our time'? All he seems to care about is not upsetting Muslims, and Boris the Turk is no better. With people like them in charge, the country is finished.*Provide security forces with more resources
Deal with security threat at source - bombing in Iraq & Syria
Take on radical narrative, stand up for our values - identify radicalisation
* Before any of the apologists ask why I don't leave, I already have. I'm dreading what I'll see when/if I ever return.
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