English votes for English laws

[Strocky]

Borghetto said:

Reading your posts are predictably stupid. You lost the referendum, Sturgeon is already backtracking on calling another one for fear of losing again. Go back and read that tissue of nonsense called the White Paper, published under the seal of the two faced FM Salmond and ask yourself if any of it now stands up to scrutiny.

Firstly, thanks for the kind review

However, what's that got to do with the massive own goal scored tonight?

Despite the white paper, 45% voted for independence, after what's happened since (the broken "vow" / targeting those that work on tax credits / two tier parliament), which way do you think the polls are going?

And do you think the SNP are that thick they won't call the next one until they're certain of a win?

[///ajd]

Strocky said:

Firstly, thanks for the kind review

However, what's that got to do with the massive own goal scored tonight?

Despite the white paper, 45% voted for independence, after what's happened since (the broken "vow" / targeting those that work on tax credits / two tier parliament), which way do you think the polls are going?

And do you think the SNP are that thick they won't call the next one until they're certain of a win?

Hi Stroker - are you banned from the Scot indie thread?

Funny to see Wishtart complaining how EVEL is going too quickly - when only five minutes ago he was complaining that the vow was taking too long.

The SNP are such inconsistent hypocrites they are now beyond parody.

Are the SNP that thick? Look at Business for Scotland now - shown to be a total sham, just like the (s)hite paper. Thomson, with direct links to Sturgeon, and that other bloke shown pulling the strings cybernat puppets.

I actually think EVEL is not needed - just as we don't need Holyrood leeching away money into a vacuum of incompetence for no good end. Its a load of wasteful nonsense - pushed by the whinging and bleating of nat victims.

A sad day for the UK.

[blinkythefish]

Strocky said:

Borghetto said:

Reading your posts are predictably stupid. You lost the referendum, Sturgeon is already backtracking on calling another one for fear of losing again. Go back and read that tissue of nonsense called the White Paper, published under the seal of the two faced FM Salmond and ask yourself if any of it now stands up to scrutiny.

Firstly, thanks for the kind review

However, what's that got to do with the massive own goal scored tonight?

Despite the white paper, 45% voted for independence, after what's happened since (the broken "vow" / targeting those that work on tax credits / two tier parliament), which way do you think the polls are going?

And do you think the SNP are that thick they won't call the next one until they're certain of a win?

How many no voters did so because of the vow? Hardly any judging by the fact the only people you ever hear whining about it are nats, assuming they're not busy whining about something else.

[Strocky]

Unfortunately yes,I'm banned until the next installment, you'll be sad to know

At the end of the day, it's all politick, but when Labour & the Lib Dems (no lovers of the SNP) are agreeing with them, it pays to pay attention

At the end of the day, I've no problem with English MPs sorting out English Only matters, but under a federalist UK

Under the new voting structure you've got English only MP's deciding about the Scotland Bill's powers and making decisions about the NHS that has a knock on effect re the Scottish NHS budget, not to mention the Barnett Formula funding based on pro rata share of elements of cap expenditure projects. The same cap-ex projects which Scottish Westminster MPs now have no say over

[Strocky]

blinkythefish said:

How many no voters did so because of the vow? Hardly any judging by the fact the only people you ever hear whining about it are nats, assuming they're not busy whining about something else.

Only 3.4% according to the polls, however only 9% of the respondents think that the vow has been delivered

So mathematically the gap has shortened since the referendum

[Funk]

Strocky said:

Well as a nasty Nat, I'd like to raise a dram to the Tories, they've just knocked 3 to 5 years off the breakup of the Union

You seem to be under the impression most of us care whether Scotland stays or goes at this point. If you're all going, just get on with it and no, you can't take any of the silverware on your way out the door. And we'll be stopping your allowance - after all, you WANTED financial control so you can have it.

I'm sick to the back teeth of the SNP's - and pro-independence supporters' - over-inflated sense of self-importance and the arrogance of wanted to have their cake and eat it. You have issues only Scots MPs can vote on. We have issues only English MPs can now vote on. Only in the warped, twisted mind of a Nat or SNP supporter can that be deemed 'unfair'.

Even easier then Stroky - since all your MPs are in the HoC anyway, let's just get shot of the Scottish Parliament completely and let them vote on our issues and we'll vote on yours.. It'll save a heck of a lot of hassle and will result in a fairer outcome all-round as everyone will be treated equally.

[Police State]

HarryW said:

Really surprised at the lack of opinion on this, I suppose it does go to show the lack interest and apathy the politicians rely on.

Divide and Conquer. That's how they have always maintained power.

[Derek Smith]

eldar said:

First sentence, agree.

Second, not quite so straightforward, salisbury convention?

Third, Blair started Lords reform.

No, it isn't lords reform. I'm all for that. What he's done is threaten the lords if they do what they are supposed to do.

It is there as a check. In essence it can only delay, although they exert pressure (a precis). The suggestion from Obsourne is that if they do so, they will be neutered.

I don't think he has the power to do so and I don't think this government would be that stupid, but it is the threat that is important.

There is much wrong with the second chamber, but there is a whole lot more wrong with the threat.

As for the Salisbury Convention, it is just that, an agreement. However, it was made when the lords, habitually overwhelmingly tory, was faced with a labour majority. Here we have something different. There is considerable disquiet on all sides about this bit of legislation. If the tory peers vote against it, as they are likely to do, I would suggest that the convention does not apply.

[HD Adam]

Strocky said:

Under the new voting structure you've got English only MP's deciding about the Scotland Bill's powers and making decisions about the NHS that has a knock on effect re the Scottish NHS budget, not to mention the Barnett Formula funding based on pro rata share of elements of cap expenditure projects. The same cap-ex projects which Scottish Westminster MPs now have no say over

This is basically incorrect or a lie.

If an English only matter requires extra funding that would effect the budget for Scotland (or N.I etc), then all MP's vote, not just the English ones.

[powerstroke]

Surely first past the post is broken Is PR the answer?? or a federal system maybe , its fun seeng the SNP so worked up and a little nod towards mending a unfair to england system but will it work???

[HD Adam]

If we'd had PR in the last election, the SNP would have had less seats and UKIP would have had more than them.

They would be unhappier.

[gofasterrosssco]

HD Adam said:

Strocky said:

Under the new voting structure you've got English only MP's deciding about the Scotland Bill's powers and making decisions about the NHS that has a knock on effect re the Scottish NHS budget, not to mention the Barnett Formula funding based on pro rata share of elements of cap expenditure projects. The same cap-ex projects which Scottish Westminster MPs now have no say over

This is basically incorrect or a lie.

If an English only matter requires extra funding that would effect the budget for Scotland (or N.I etc), then all MP's vote, not just the English ones.

Exactly. Though its unsurprising that many of the flag-wavers don't actually get it..

The YESNP just see this as an attack on their political influence (in a place where they don't even want to be!) and therefore relate themselves to 'Scotland' as they do with everything..

Although I must sort of agree with my esteemed flag-waving countryman, in that it will play into the YESNP's hand's, as they love anything that will play up to the victim card mentality which is so often trotted out.. The previous decision to vote on the English fox-hunting ban was a deliberate tactic (cloaked in a air of righteousness) to cause frustration with English MP's to push for EVEL (as, like the issue of foodbanks, the SNP needed anything that can be construed as anti-Scottish or a failing by Westminster..).

Nationalism 101

[Moonhawk]

Why are the SNP opposed to this - they effectively have "Scottish votes for Scottish laws" and have had for a while.

Would they be opposed to English devolution?

One rule huh! fking hypocrites

[Moonhawk]

arp1 said:

No offence at all, but when is an english matter solely an English matter? Political football when the ripples of english matters are felt further afield

Same could be said of Scottish matters. If Scotland had voted for independence - that would have had massive repercussions for rUK - yet everybody else was excluded from having a say.

[Funk]

Moonhawk said:

arp1 said:

No offence at all, but when is an english matter solely an English matter? Political football when the ripples of english matters are felt further afield

Same could be said of Scottish matters. If Scotland had voted for independence - that would have had massive repercussions for rUK - yet everybody else was excluded from having a say.

Touché, Moonhawk. Tou-fking-ché...

[roadtripboy]

Strocky said:

Only 3.4% according to the polls, however only 9% of the respondents think that the vow has been delivered

So mathematically the gap has shortened since the referendum

Please explain which part of the vow has not been delivered. Angus Robertson struggled to do this, so I would have thought that Cyber HQ would have prepared an answer by now.

[blinkythefish]

Strocky said:

blinkythefish said:

How many no voters did so because of the vow? Hardly any judging by the fact the only people you ever hear whining about it are nats, assuming they're not busy whining about something else.

Only 3.4% according to the polls, however only 9% of the respondents think that the vow has been delivered

So mathematically the gap has shortened since the referendum

That poll was for people citing it as their main reson, not their only reason. So I wouldn't count them all as being automatic switches. Notably, that same poll found 41.3% of Yes voters think the vow is why everyone else voted no, hence why they keep banging on about it - They think they are going to convert the no voters, but as usual, they are preaching to the choir.

Which brings us back to EVEL, all the yes sheep are up in arms about the unfairness of it and "second class MP's" everyone else looks at it and goes "fair enough, Scotland has a second parliamment which deals with the devolved stuff". Again, they are all preaching to each other and convincing themselves they have made a great impact.

As an aside, do you think the number of people who would change from No->Yes as a consequence of EVEL and "the Vow" is greater or less than the number of people who would change from Yes->No now that the Salmond, Swinney and Sturgeon's lie(for it was such, not just wishful thinking) about the massive oil windfall iScotland would receive has been shown to be total bks?

[AC43]

blinkythefish said:

Notably, that same poll found 41.3% of Yes voters think the vow is why everyone else voted no, hence why they keep banging on about it

They must thing that the No voters are complete simpletons. They had a solid 18 months to make their minds up. They had access to tons of economic forecasts, analyst reports, opinion pieces, TV and radio programmes, statements from business leaders, projections from the Bank of England, statements from the EU about the Euro (phnarr phnarr), lies from Salmon and so on upon which to base their decision.

To suggest one poxy pledge right at the end would make the slightest difference is utterly deluded.

Edit; and for those with longer memories listening to Margot Macdonald with her nasal, grating, whining whinging in the 70's was guaranteed to create a No voter for life. Where do they find these people?

Edited by AC43 on Friday 23 October 13:24

Edited by AC43 on Friday 23 October 13:25