Tank and anti-aircraft gun found in German cellar

[Justayellowbadge]

Smollet said:

vonuber said:

A PzkwV in that condition will be worth a hell of a lot.

Indeed. Working ones are as rare as hen's teeth

I saw something recently about the younger Wheatcroft, of the Donnington family, who has an enormous collection of Nazi memorabilia, kit and vehicles, including 88 tanks.

He claimed to have turned down a 2.5 million offer for his Panzer.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/the-m...

Edited by Justayellowbadge on Saturday 4th July 21:57

[Art0ir]

Breadvan72 said:

"The owner was described as a man of short stature, with a small moustache, going by the name Herr Schickelgruber. His only comment was 'Tomorrow belongs to me'."

I have missed your wit in these parts

[Pesty]

Justayellowbadge said:

I saw something recently about the younger Wheatcroft, of the Donnington family, who has an enormous collection of Nazi memorabilia, kit and vehicles, including 88 tanks.

He claimed to have turned down a 2.5 million offer for his Panzer.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/the-m...

Edited by Justayellowbadge on Saturday 4th July 21:57

88 tanks...


Surely just a random number and purely coincidence.

[Beati Dogu]

Ja. Impressive collection.

[xjsdriver]

Beati Dogu said:

Ja. Impressive collection.

Ja. Uncle Wolf approves.....so does uncle Max (photo redacted)

[RYH64E]

Justayellowbadge said:

I saw something recently about the younger Wheatcroft, of the Donnington family, who has an enormous collection of Nazi memorabilia, kit and vehicles, including 88 tanks.

He claimed to have turned down a 2.5 million offer for his Panzer.

That's £2.5m for the Panzer IV, the Panther in the original article will be worth a lot more.

[soad]

Pesty said:

Justayellowbadge said:

I saw something recently about the younger Wheatcroft, of the Donnington family, who has an enormous collection of Nazi memorabilia, kit and vehicles, including 88 tanks.

He claimed to have turned down a 2.5 million offer for his Panzer.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/the-m...

88 tanks...


Surely just a random number and purely coincidence.

That chap seems obsessed! (The letter H is eighth in the alphabet, whereby 88 becomes HH).

[anonymous-user]

Art0ir said:

Breadvan72 said:

"The owner was described as a man of short stature, with a small moustache, going by the name Herr Schickelgruber. His only comment was 'Tomorrow belongs to me'."

I have missed your wit in these parts

Cheers! I was holed up in Bolivia with some mysterious old German dudes. They weren't very nice guys, but they sure had some stories!

[vonuber]

RYH64E said:

That's £2.5m for the Panzer IV, the Panther in the original article will be worth a lot more.

Yep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsodIneQGzI

Best medium tank of the war - I've always wanted one as a daily runner

[anonymous-user]

Yeah, but they still lost. Nah nee nah nee nah ner!

Joking aside, the adulation given to the Nazi military and their kit appears to me to be often misplaced, as they also made lots of cock ups (taking orders from Hitler being the numero uno cock up), and didn't fully mobilise their economy or modernise their stuff year on year. Panzer IVs were still a mainstay long after becoming outclassed by Allied tanks. Ditto (in the air) Bf 109s. Compare and contrast, for example, the Spitfire, which by 1945 was a zillion times more developed than it was in 1940. Lots of Allied cock ups and shonky kit too, of course, but in the end the side that deserved to win did win.

[RYH64E]

vonuber said:

Best medium tank of the war - I've always wanted one as a daily runner

I think most would vote for the T-34 as the best all round medium tank of WW2, the Panther was too heavy, too complicated and too unreliable. The problem with having one as a daily runner would be their McLaren-esque reliablity, according to Wiki engine life averaged just 620 miles.

[williamp]

RYH64E said:

vonuber said:

Best medium tank of the war - I've always wanted one as a daily runner

I think most would vote for the T-34 as the best all round medium tank of WW2, the Panther was too heavy, too complicated and too unreliable. The problem with having one as a daily runner would be their McLaren-esque reliablity, according to Wiki engine life averaged just 620 miles.

So come on then, which ww2 era medium tank would be the best daily runner?

[vonuber]

RYH64E said:

I think most would vote for the T-34 as the best all round medium tank of WW2, the Panther was too heavy, too complicated and too unreliable. The problem with having one as a daily runner would be their McLaren-esque reliablity, according to Wiki engine life averaged just 620 miles.

The T-34 wasn't as good a gun platform as the Panther, had poorer crew survivability and the gun was not as effective. But yes, the Panther was complicated and suffered a weak drive train (in part due to material shortages).
620 miles is alright, my commute is only 5 miles. Would solve getting through central London traffic.

[Bodo]

The Panther was apparently sourced by the collector in November 1977 from a scrapyard in Surrey. Also, police found something looking like a V1 in the building.

http://www.shz.de/lokales/kiel/razzia-beendet-v1-r...

[Tango13]

Breadvan72 said:

Yeah, but they still lost. Nah nee nah nee nah ner!

Joking aside, the adulation given to the Nazi military and their kit appears to me to be often misplaced, as they also made lots of cock ups (taking orders from Hitler being the numero uno cock up), and didn't fully mobilise their economy or modernise their stuff year on year. Panzer IVs were still a mainstay long after becoming outclassed by Allied tanks. Ditto (in the air) Bf 109s. Compare and contrast, for example, the Spitfire, which by 1945 was a zillion times more developed than it was in 1940. Lots of Allied cock ups and shonky kit too, of course, but in the end the side that deserved to win did win.

With regards the Spitfire vs 109 I've always maintained that you can tell a great design by how much you can alter or abuse it from it's original design brief and still have a working product. The basic design of the Spitfire could handle extra an 1500BHP, the higher speeds and the massive increase in firepower from bigger guns etc

Fitting bigger engines or more/bigger guns didn't really do the 109 any favours, it was too small an airframe for any meaningful evoloution of the design to take place.

I've always put this down to the fact that Willy Messerschmitt learnt his trade designing and building gliders, R.J Mitchell learnt his trade first on steam locomotives and then designing and building racing aircraft.

[irocfan]

Bodo said:

The Panther was apparently sourced by the collector in November 1977 from a scrapyard in Surrey. Also, police found something looking like a V1 in the building.

http://www.shz.de/lokales/kiel/razzia-beendet-v1-r...

from the pics the bugger also seems to have had an 88mm A/T and carriage stored away - that's also worth a few pennies.


there is an ongoing debate about the best tank in WWII and the answer depends on many factors...
the Panther had some serious design flaws (gearbox thanks to extra weight not being compensated for and the wheel arrangement was not suitable for late autumn/winter/early spring in the East) and poor reliability (due in part to poor materials used) but there is an argument that with the flaws corrected it would have been streets away the best tank in the war. The 75mm gun used was apparently a better gun than the 88mm used in the Tiger (IIRC higher velocity more advanced design)
the Tiger was just a monster with similar flaws to the Panther (gearbox/materials)
the Tiger II ditto - with the added disadvantage of being so bloody heavy
the T-34 revolutionised tank design and (in common with the Sherman) had a quality all of it's own... quantity
the M-26 Pershing was introduced in too few numbers to really be able to properly evaluate

any thoughts?



edited to add...

this is quite cool too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=10&v=Qo96H8bf_...

Edited by irocfan on Sunday 5th July 20:32

[PlankWithANailIn]

The Brits just missed getting the Centurion into battle, if we had there would have been no argument about what the best medium tank was. In the end we had to settle for best medium tank in the post war victory parade.

[ruggedscotty]

was it not in Hornchurch that they found a tank in the attic of a house ?

[Beati Dogu]

I like how the German word for "tracks" is "ketten" (chains).

[soad]

ruggedscotty said:

was it not in Hornchurch that they found a tank in the attic of a house ?

How do you get a tank into the attic?!