Tank and anti-aircraft gun found in German cellar
Discussion
julian64 said:
Not sure about that. Even toward the end of the war the german stuff was still more advanced. A single country developed the best aircraft, best engines including fuel injection and jet technology, by far the best tanks, and even ballistic weapons. The rest of the world was required by force of numbers to subdue them. But when you consider pretty much all that tech came out of a single country. I don't think you can say the adulation given to their kit was misplaced.
Indeed. Their modus operandi was to throw it all at the wall and see what sttuck, and then to keep on the specialist treatment instead of going for an all-rounder. THat's why so many lives and Soviet aggression was ignored when the Americans went into PIlsen to grab all the 'goodies.'little lad is asking his granddad about the war
"did you get any souvenirs granddad?"
"well, look in the bottom of that cupboard over there, there's a German officers cap"
the lad gets it and tries it on
"wow, have you got anything else?"
"well, don't tell your granny, but look in my bedside drawer, there's a hitler youth dagger.."
the lad runs off, come back with the dagger
"amazing! you don't have anything else do you?"
the old man leans in close
"look, I shouldn't have this, but I've got a real Luger taken from an SS General"
"where is it!" says the lad excitedly
"OK, go up in the airing cupboard, under the tank..."
"f
k OFF YOU'VE NEVER GOT A TANK HAVE YOU!"
"did you get any souvenirs granddad?"
"well, look in the bottom of that cupboard over there, there's a German officers cap"
the lad gets it and tries it on
"wow, have you got anything else?"
"well, don't tell your granny, but look in my bedside drawer, there's a hitler youth dagger.."
the lad runs off, come back with the dagger
"amazing! you don't have anything else do you?"
the old man leans in close
"look, I shouldn't have this, but I've got a real Luger taken from an SS General"
"where is it!" says the lad excitedly
"OK, go up in the airing cupboard, under the tank..."
"f
k OFF YOU'VE NEVER GOT A TANK HAVE YOU!"Halb said:
julian64 said:
Not sure about that. Even toward the end of the war the german stuff was still more advanced. A single country developed the best aircraft, best engines including fuel injection and jet technology, by far the best tanks, and even ballistic weapons. The rest of the world was required by force of numbers to subdue them. But when you consider pretty much all that tech came out of a single country. I don't think you can say the adulation given to their kit was misplaced.
Indeed. Their modus operandi was to throw it all at the wall and see what stuck, and then to keep on the specialist treatment instead of going for an all-rounder. THat's why so many lives and Soviet aggression was ignored when the Americans went into PIlsen to grab all the 'goodies.'A lot of their ideas were not unique; what was unique was that they put them into practise. But as said earlier, often down to necessity and desperation of trying to find a war-winning weapon. Often also down to folly.
V8 Fettler said:
"Who made the better weapons" is not clear cut. Allied radar was always ahead of the Germans, crucial in the Battle of the Atlantic. The night air war over Germany swung back and forth depending on technical advances and tactics. Towards the end of the war, German advanced nightfighters were stalking Mosquitoes were stalking "traditional" German nightfighters were stalking RAF bombers.
It makes little difference though, invading the USSR and then declaring war on the USA rather overwhelms any technical advantages. Even sufficient U-boats at the right time to win the Battle of the Atlantic merely delays the arrival of the Soviet armour in Berlin.
Some of the Allied radar tech was a double edged sword. H2S was described as being treacherous by one senior Luftwaffe general as giving the Germans advanced warning of a raid and simply being able to plot aircraft from take off to destination and home again, mostly thanks to its misuse by crews using it from take off , rather than checking when near the target and the bombing run. The same for Monica tail radar in which both cases the RAF were very slow to react to warnings it was being used by the German against them.It makes little difference though, invading the USSR and then declaring war on the USA rather overwhelms any technical advantages. Even sufficient U-boats at the right time to win the Battle of the Atlantic merely delays the arrival of the Soviet armour in Berlin.
The science and tech war in labs and workshops is every bit as fascinating as the battlefield.
Cheers, I will read it. In exchange, I recommend "The Big Show", by Pierre Clostermann. In my opinion this is the best fighter pilot memoir of WW2, by a man whose air to air victory tally was probably rather higher than the stingy official figures suggest (Allied air forces were very cagey in recognising victories, whist German aces were easily credited, and allowed to add ground targets destroyed to the total). Far more human and revealing than the usual "jolly good show, wizard pranged a couple, shame that the skipper bought it, plum duff for tea" stiff upper lip ghost written stuff. Recently re issued in an updated edition in French, but I'm not sure if that edition has been translated yet. The only thing that rivals it is "First Light" by Geoffrey Wellum. Right up there with WW1 memoir "Sagittarius Rising".
TEKNOPUG said:
Best ballistic weapons, certainly. Although they amounted to zero impact on the war and actually robbed resources and skills from other areas. Best aircraft? All iterations of the Spitfire, P-47, P-51 (who's introduction was actually delayed by 18months), Mossie, Lanc, B-17, Liberator, B-29....I think that they were more than equal to anything equivalent that the German's produced. Sure, the Me262 was a more advanced airframe than the Meteor but only because the Meteor was still a rolling test-bed, with a very safe but limited design. Best engines? Merlin v DB601 - they traded power figures throughout the war. The RR Welland engines are widely accepted as being better than the Junkers Jumo fitted to the Me262. So I'd argue that their adulation is somewhat misplaced.
A lot of their ideas were not unique; what was unique was that they put them into practise. But as said earlier, often down to necessity and desperation of trying to find a war-winning weapon. Often also down to folly.
Their aversion to 'Jewish' science led them into unique areas.A lot of their ideas were not unique; what was unique was that they put them into practise. But as said earlier, often down to necessity and desperation of trying to find a war-winning weapon. Often also down to folly.
I read a few books about the more esoteric stuff. The ideas that came to fruition years later in different countries lay with the crazy NAZIs, and I reckon there are still things to come.
Negative Creep said:
Luckily for us the Germans split their resources amongst lots of competing designs instead of focussing on a few really good ones
Pretty much. They were desperate bybthstcstage.The yanks decided prewar not to go for advanced stuff and use basic. With the one obvious exception of course.
Breadvan72 said:
Cheers, I will read it. In exchange, I recommend "The Big Show", by Pierre Clostermann. In my opinion this is the best fighter pilot memoir of WW2, by a man whose air to air victory tally was probably rather higher than the stingy official figures suggest (Allied air forces were very cagey in recognising victories, whist German aces were easily credited, and allowed to add ground targets destroyed to the total). Far more human and revealing than the usual "jolly good show, wizard pranged a couple, shame that the skipper bought it, plum duff for tea" stiff upper lip ghost written stuff. Recently re issued in an updated edition in French, but I'm not sure if that edition has been translated yet. The only thing that rivals it is "First Light" by Geoffrey Wellum. Right up there with WW1 memoir "Sagittarius Rising".
I've got a copy of Pierre's book, probably about 1960/70s. You're right it's a very good read & gives a great insight into the times.One of my best days out was flying to and from Project Propeller (an event at which private pilots fly RAF veterans to a reunion at a former WW2 airfield) in a Cap 10b with Flying Officer Frank Wheeler DFC, a Typhoon pilot who flew over 100 ops, starting with Operation Jericho when he was on the escort for the Mosquitos bombing Amiens Prison; and taking in the invasion, the Falaise pocket, and much else besides. Jericho was Frank's first op, several of the escort group turned back because of bad weather, and he found himself at the target in a low level turning fight with a gaggle of long nose 190s, below snow clouds that were at 1000 feet agl. The Typhoon was not at all suited to this sort of fighting! Frank told many great stories, some of which were very funny. After the war, having blown up so many people and things, and seen so much death and destruction, he wanted to build things instead, and became a great teacher and headmaster. Frank died just a couple of years ago in his early 90s.
On another Propeller trip, I flew with a chap who had been in Spitfires. He had not touched the controls of an aeroplane since shortly after VE Day. I gave him a quick verbal briefing on aerobatic entry speeds for a Cap 10, gave him control, and he performed a perfect loop and aileron roll (much better than my efforts). He liked the fact that the Cap 10 has elliptical wings.
When I flew with a Lancaster pilot, he was not chatty. The fighter chaps tell anecdotes and shoot lines. The bomber chaps tend only to talk of their experiences amongst themselves, such were the horrors that they went through.
On another Propeller trip, I flew with a chap who had been in Spitfires. He had not touched the controls of an aeroplane since shortly after VE Day. I gave him a quick verbal briefing on aerobatic entry speeds for a Cap 10, gave him control, and he performed a perfect loop and aileron roll (much better than my efforts). He liked the fact that the Cap 10 has elliptical wings.
When I flew with a Lancaster pilot, he was not chatty. The fighter chaps tell anecdotes and shoot lines. The bomber chaps tend only to talk of their experiences amongst themselves, such were the horrors that they went through.
What a great event and privilege that must be to fly those former pilots to reunions - well done BV !
The Typhoon is I think is my favorite and most interesting aircraft of that period and I can't get enough of hearing about former pilots exploits.
The Falaise pocket attacks and the grim reality of war were best summed up by a Typhoon pilot who said you could smell the death and destruction at ten thousand feet in that area.
The Typhoon always fascinated me from simply looking rather butch to the complexity of that Napier Sabre engine. For some reason I always like it to the BRM V16 GP car, they seem kinda similar in a way. Lets hope Kermit Weeks gets his Tempest V rebuilt and one of his Sabre engine engines running.
The Typhoon is I think is my favorite and most interesting aircraft of that period and I can't get enough of hearing about former pilots exploits.
The Falaise pocket attacks and the grim reality of war were best summed up by a Typhoon pilot who said you could smell the death and destruction at ten thousand feet in that area.
The Typhoon always fascinated me from simply looking rather butch to the complexity of that Napier Sabre engine. For some reason I always like it to the BRM V16 GP car, they seem kinda similar in a way. Lets hope Kermit Weeks gets his Tempest V rebuilt and one of his Sabre engine engines running.
Mr_B said:
What a great event and privilege that must be to fly those former pilots to reunions - well done BV !
The Typhoon is I think is my favorite and most interesting aircraft of that period and I can't get enough of hearing about former pilots exploits.
The Falaise pocket attacks and the grim reality of war were best summed up by a Typhoon pilot who said you could smell the death and destruction at ten thousand feet in that area.
The Typhoon always fascinated me from simply looking rather butch to the complexity of that Napier Sabre engine. For some reason I always like it to the BRM V16 GP car, they seem kinda similar in a way. Lets hope Kermit Weeks gets his Tempest V rebuilt and one of his Sabre engine engines running.
That comparison is deeply unkind to the Sabre.The Typhoon is I think is my favorite and most interesting aircraft of that period and I can't get enough of hearing about former pilots exploits.
The Falaise pocket attacks and the grim reality of war were best summed up by a Typhoon pilot who said you could smell the death and destruction at ten thousand feet in that area.
The Typhoon always fascinated me from simply looking rather butch to the complexity of that Napier Sabre engine. For some reason I always like it to the BRM V16 GP car, they seem kinda similar in a way. Lets hope Kermit Weeks gets his Tempest V rebuilt and one of his Sabre engine engines running.
The BRM v16, while technically interesting, was a disaster as a race car engine.
AW111 said:
Mr_B said:
What a great event and privilege that must be to fly those former pilots to reunions - well done BV !
The Typhoon is I think is my favorite and most interesting aircraft of that period and I can't get enough of hearing about former pilots exploits.
The Falaise pocket attacks and the grim reality of war were best summed up by a Typhoon pilot who said you could smell the death and destruction at ten thousand feet in that area.
The Typhoon always fascinated me from simply looking rather butch to the complexity of that Napier Sabre engine. For some reason I always like it to the BRM V16 GP car, they seem kinda similar in a way. Lets hope Kermit Weeks gets his Tempest V rebuilt and one of his Sabre engine engines running.
That comparison is deeply unkind to the Sabre.The Typhoon is I think is my favorite and most interesting aircraft of that period and I can't get enough of hearing about former pilots exploits.
The Falaise pocket attacks and the grim reality of war were best summed up by a Typhoon pilot who said you could smell the death and destruction at ten thousand feet in that area.
The Typhoon always fascinated me from simply looking rather butch to the complexity of that Napier Sabre engine. For some reason I always like it to the BRM V16 GP car, they seem kinda similar in a way. Lets hope Kermit Weeks gets his Tempest V rebuilt and one of his Sabre engine engines running.
The BRM v16, while technically interesting, was a disaster as a race car engine.
Yes the car and engine never went on to win anything, where as the Sabre was used and made more reliable, but that isn't really what I was getting at, it was more one of the ambition and technical complexity that made them similar against going the conventional route. Typhoon pilots weren't exactly hugely favourable to the engine with many being on edge about flying channel sweeps and having to be on oxygen the whole time.
Halb said:
Negative Creep said:
Luckily for us the Germans split their resources amongst lots of competing designs instead of focussing on a few really good ones
Pretty much. They were desperate bybthstcstage.The yanks decided prewar not to go for advanced stuff and use basic. With the one obvious exception of course.
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