This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

[Digga]

Borghetto said:

Digga said:

superlightr said:

Putin may well say to Greece lease me an island for 99 years, I will build a base there and pay off half of your debt or something similar.

The Greeks have something he wants, and he has oil and gas without which, Greece will grind to a halt very quickly and nastily.

The sums required to keep Greece afloat are way beyond Russia's financial clout. The real danger is that the Greek's suffer so badly from the fall out, they align with Russia because they no longer share the West's values - needn't cost Putin more than some humanitarian aid.

Greece is strangely schizophrenic; politically left wing, bordering on Communist, but privately enterprising and pro-free market. As in the "in out" debate, they also want to have their cake and eat it, expect others to pay tax, but not do so themselves.

I would not be surprised at any turn of events from hereon in TBH.

[nbetts]

Scuffers said:

here's a question..

Which one of our esteemed financial consultancy companies do we have to blame for misrepresenting the Greek books to get it into the Euro in the first place?

At a guess, Goldman Sachs

[nbetts]

Here is a thought too - Perhaps Greece will sue Goldman Sachs and GS will have to pay their deficit...

If only Carlsberg did Country Finance

[Mr_B]

Scuffers said:

here's a question..

Which one of our esteemed financial consultancy companies do we have to blame for misrepresenting the Greek books to get it into the Euro in the first place?

I presume there is also a Greek equivalent of Ken Clarke and Paddy Ashdown who said 'we must join or we'll miss out massively economically and 3 million jobs will be at risk' ?

[Axionknight]

Mr_B said:

I presume there is also a Greek equivalent of Ken Clarke and Paddy Ashdown who said 'we must join or we'll miss out massively economically and 3 million jobs will be at risk' ?

God, I hope not.

[Ali G]

nbetts said:

At a guess, Goldman Sachs

Perhaps the citizens of Greece can launch some form of 'no win, no fee' 'class action' US claim against Goldman's for assisting in misrepresentation with 'punitive' damages to be awarded



Obviously - the Greek Government can't, the EU Bigwigs can't - too enmired in faeces already.

Would be nice - but ain't going to happen.

Notwithstanding the legal complexities - Greece is, well, in Greece and Goldmans are under the protection of the good 'ol US of A.

Allegedly.

And the EU may have failed to conduct a thorough review of Greece's application, demonstrating remarkable 'head up bum' ability.

[s2art]

Ali G said:

nbetts said:

At a guess, Goldman Sachs

Perhaps the citizens of Greece can launch some form of 'no win, no fee' 'class action' US claim against Goldman's for assisting in misrepresentation with 'punitive' damages to be awarded



Obviously - the Greek Government can't, the EU Bigwigs can't - too enmired in faeces already.

Would be nice - but ain't going to happen.

Notwithstanding the legal complexities - Greece is, well, in Greece and Goldmans are under the protection of the good 'ol US of A.

Allegedly.

And the EU may have failed to conduct a thorough review of Greece's application, demonstrating remarkable 'head up bum' ability.

Hmmm, how about a class action against GS by the UK, Holland and other net contributers as it has cost us several billions when they default. We might try the ECB as well in that action for criminal negligence.

[Beati Dogu]

GS could have produced a report saying Greece was a useless basket case and the EU would still have turned a blind eye to it.

The project must carry on at all costs.

[Ali G]

He who pays the piper - calls the tunes.

Were GS engaged by Greece, or EU?

No idea

And when were the last set of EU accounts audited and signed off?

A B**gers muddle untying Gordians Knot long after Goldman's horse bolted the stable.

Too many metaphors?

Edited to add the last two lines - for what it is worth

Edited by Ali G on Monday 6th July 16:11

[Art0ir]

nbetts said:

Scuffers said:

here's a question..

Which one of our esteemed financial consultancy companies do we have to blame for misrepresenting the Greek books to get it into the Euro in the first place?

At a guess, Goldman Sachs

And guess who was MD of Goldman during that period, taken on to "work with the firm's senior management in Europe and New York on European strategy and on developing and expanding the firm's business globally. Specifically... help the firm develop and execute business with major European corporations and with governments and government agencies worldwide. "

This same individual was director general of the Italian Treasury during the time they pulled the same stunt to cheat the Maastricht Treaty rules.

Edited by Art0ir on Monday 6th July 16:16

[andymadmak]

I have friends and an office in Greece - Athens to be precise. This is a total mess. People are really going to suffer and there is nobody but the politicians AND the people to blame.

Moreover, the approach taken by the Greek Government to this whole negotiation and then this nonsensical referendum has all but ensured years more pain for Greece. You simply cannot use the language they used and expect the Germans to compromise now. And let's face it, it IS the Germans who will have to foot the lions share of the bill if they were to back down and let the Greeks walk away whistling. Vague references by Greek politicians to "the Nazis were let off their debts after WW2, so why won't THEY now let us off ours?" took the debate to a place that was less about economics or banking and more about nationalism and toxic emotions. "Vote NO to restore Greek pride" has to be the worst contradiction in terms I have seen for a long long time.

And this nonsense about "democracy has spoken"... Ahh yes, these people who have voted NO to paying their debts to those nasty evil money lenders are precisely the same people who voted YES to every politician who promised them unlimited fruit from the magic EU money tree for the last 15 years. So it's democracy when you say no to paying your debts, but not democracy when you vote to accumulate the debt in the first place?

And be under absolutely no illusion that Greeks know full well what was going on for the last 15 years. The levels of waste and profligacy were epic. The levels of tax evasion (yes evasion, not avoidance) were spectacular. EVERYONE does it. Indeed you'd be classed as some sort of fool if you did not by the average Greek. From Taxi drivers to Trillionaires, tax evasion was and is the Greek national obsession.

But boy oh boy, like an alcoholic left alone in a well stocked bar the Greeks sure knew how to spend money when the EU money tree came within their grasp. You only have to drive past the old Athens airport with its hundreds of busses parked up and abandoned to see clear evidence of this. Why the new busses ? well not because they were not road worthy at the time they were parked, but because Greece fancied some air conditioning on its public transport. Fine if you can afford it, maybe even phase it in over time...but no, spend millions on nice new busses cos someone gave us some cash. You might think they might have sold the old busses off cheap to somewhere that could make use of them and thereby recoup some of the costs of the upgrade. But no, spend spend spend and hang any notion of responsibility.

And don't even get me started on Athens light rail system!

Greece reminds me of those people we all know - you know the folk. The Spendalots. Reasonable jobs but nothing special and yet they have 3 holidays per year, new cars on the drive, designer gear and all the latest electro toys...and all paid for on maxxed out credit cards on which they make minimum payments. Need more stuff? Fib on the application and get another card to max out asap. Some people tell you that your own prudence and being sensible with the cash is just stupid. Be more like Mr and Mrs Spendalot, enjoy life and max those cards they say. You earn more Mr Shicklegruber, just think what you could buy if you REALLY let rip with the plastic!!!!! But no, you keep it real. Yes you'd love that classic 911, and one day, when you have saved a bit, you'll get it, but for now you'll keep to the sensible, prudent side of the fence. Make sure your kids are fed, your family is healthy and your roof is in good condition. The Spendalots think you're a tt.

Only one day Mr Spendalot loses his overtime and now they cannot make the minimum payments. Now their profligacy is coming home to roost, except it doesn't come home at all because in the twisted world of "blame everyone else", living an unsustainable lifestyle and failing to take care of even the most basic stuff is not actually their fault...no it's those nasty credit card companies faults for failing to spot the lies the Spendalots put on their applications.

So the Spendalot kids are hungry, and they need medicine, and the roof is leaking. And all of a sudden we are supposed to take responsibility for them. "Won't somebody think of our children" cry the Spendalots... and all I can think of in reply is "why the hell didn't you think of them before you acted like a drunken sailor with the family resources"

My friends in Greece were happy last night, but today the reality has dawned upon them. They are good people, not Spendalots, but even they were caught up for a while in the "its everyone else's fault... Greek pride says we should vote NO" Today they are talking about relocating to UK..... I suspect they will not be alone.

[Digga]

As I've referred to repeatedly on this thread, I have family in Greece and cannot but agree with andymadmak's excellent post.

It is a tragedy, and blame lies everywhere. It is also rather frightening and certainly very sad.

[DoubleSix]

Pretty much sums up the position as I see it.

Don't think I've ever even seen a receipt when holidaying in Greece!

[Scuffers]

well, I'm sure nobody saw this one coming!

Greece news live: EU questions legality of referendum as Euclid Tsakalotos replaces Yanis Varoufakis after resignation


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11719...

[Ali G]

And if only Aesop were here to write an apocryphal story now - for the next generation.

And this ain't no fairy tale.

And this is not Grecocentric.

[pork911]

very unusually, this is all an issue i'm really in a split mind about

debts should be repaid Vs creditors risk

actions have consequences Vs real pain for many greeks

i also sympathise a lot with the view that germany's history of debt repayments (or lack thereof) is entirely relevant

and it all goes to the heart of european issues i'm otherwise rarely interested in

...or maybe i'm getting old???

[ATG]

Transmitter Man said:

Further to my previous post some wise words from James Galbraith;

"Lenders assume the risk of loss".

However in Greece's case they have passed that responsibility onto the taxpayer.

Not sure what you mean. If a country's government borrows money, it's that country's tax payers who are on the hook for it. You pay interest and repay debt by taking tax revenue from the Treasury and giving it your lenders ... or you roll the debt if the lenders are happy to refinance you.

[Guvernator]

The thing is Greece aren't the only ones.

Chronic tax evasion
Early retirement on full salaries
Low Export's, high imports
People living luxury lifestyles on credit
Uncontrolled government spending and corruption
Work ethics which are on the "relaxed" side.

I can name several countries in Europe that have exactly the same issues, strangely enough mostly centred around the Mediterranean. Perhaps it's something in the water in that region but I think Greece could well be the thin end of the wedge.

[Ali G]

Guvernator said:

The thing is Greece aren't the only ones.

Chronic tax evasion
Early retirement on full salaries
Low Export's, high imports
People living luxury lifestyles on credit
Uncontrolled government spending and corruption
Work ethics which are on the "relaxed" side.

I can name several countries in Europe that have exactly the same issues, strangely enough mostly centred around the Mediterranean. Perhaps it's something in the water in that region but I think Greece could well be the thin end of the wedge.

Have you recently experienced a 'certain' isle in the North Sea?

[Guvernator]

Ali G said:

Have you recently experienced a 'certain' isle in the North Sea?

Lol, I know the UK is often criticized on some of this too but trust me, we are amateurs at this compared to some others.