This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

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Discussion

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
OK, let's look at this a different way.

if Grease has not joined the Euro, would they be in this st?


Borghetto

3,274 posts

182 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
OK, let's look at this a different way.

if Grease has not joined the Euro, would they be in this st?
Greece's GDP only increased because of the money pumped in by the Banks and the EU. So the reported decline in GDP is from an inflated figure caused by the "easy money". I think they would be just as poor as they are now, but without the debts they are never going to pay. And hey, how great the party was, whilst it lasted.

s2art

18,937 posts

252 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Borghetto said:
Scuffers said:
OK, let's look at this a different way.

if Grease has not joined the Euro, would they be in this st?
Greece's GDP only increased because of the money pumped in by the Banks and the EU. So the reported decline in GDP is from an inflated figure caused by the "easy money". I think they would be just as poor as they are now, but without the debts they are never going to pay. And hey, how great the party was, whilst it lasted.
Not sure about that. Out of the Euro Greece would have had a very competitive exchange rate and might have done better. Certainly tourism would have done well/better.

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
Ali G said:
Have you recently experienced a 'certain' isle in the North Sea?

confused
Lol, I know the UK is often criticized on some of this too but trust me, we are amateurs at this compared to some others.
Relativity may have some bearing - but - if UK were not highly rated in 'credit worthiness' then we (the UK) would also be fooked.

And on many counts - (net productivity/imbalance on import/export and total National indebtedness) it could be.

Which only leaves Germany as the breadwinner in EU - which will then be seriously fooked if it can't offload its manufacturing produce elsewhere.

Appears to me that there needs to be an economic 'balance' somewhere...

And the EU glitterati cannot stand on their high horse and condemn Greece for corruption/tax evasion/tax avoidance/financial malfeasance since they appear to suffer every ill for which they condemn Greece of.

So much for the EU 'Grand Future' - perhaps more of a 'Grand Trough' oink, oink.

And such is life.

smile

edit to add 'it could be' line 3 - since I have changed this and before anyone jumps down my throat

Edited by Ali G on Monday 6th July 17:55

soad

32,829 posts

175 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
OK, let's look at this a different way.

if Grease has not joined the Euro, would they be in this st?
Blaming the EU is fashionable. wink

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
ATG said:
Not sure what you mean. If a country's government borrows money, it's that country's tax payers who are on the hook for it. You pay interest and repay debt by taking tax revenue from the Treasury and giving it your lenders ... or you roll the debt if the lenders are happy to refinance you.
...but surely a lender carries out due diligence before lending money?

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
...but surely a lender carries out due diligence before lending money?
Apparently this may one of those new fangled things for which there is no 'app' for.


longshot

3,286 posts

197 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Stuff
Very interesting read. thanks for posting.

Pints

18,444 posts

193 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
Today they are talking about relocating to UK..... I suspect they will not be alone.
A worrying prospect, given their views on the socialist state and tax evasion.

jimmybobby

348 posts

105 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
The reality is the Greeks will get the bailout they need. The EU will not allow them to walk away. Tsipras has played an absolute blinder in my book. He is playing politics hard ball.

He has given the EU a bloody nose and embarrassed them by showing that the people of Greece do not want their version of a bailout.
He has also played a key factor and that is by meeting and buddying up with Russia the bad guys.

Brussels will now be under added pressure from the US who have a major issue with Russia and wont want Greece siding up with Russia.

Then there is the issue of debt loss. Those who have lent money cannot afford to lose their money (not really) as such the best option is for them to get a deal that may give them a chance to get their money back.

The ECB and so on are openly trying to punish or squeeze Greece into accepting their terms of Austerity. This is a fools errand. If they cause Greece to default and in turn make life even harder for Greeks in an attempt to force Greeces hand then you can be damn sure the Greeks will not accept help from the EU in the future and WILL cut out and go back to the Drachma.

I also would not be surprised to see Russia step in and help out Greece as it will play to Putin's game against the EU and US who he has a serious issu with presently due to their empire building.

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
jimmybobby said:
The reality is the Greeks will get the bailout they need. The EU will not allow them to walk away. Tsipras has played an absolute blinder in my book. He is playing politics hard ball.

He has given the EU a bloody nose and embarrassed them by showing that the people of Greece do not want their version of a bailout.
He has also played a key factor and that is by meeting and buddying up with Russia the bad guys.

Brussels will now be under added pressure from the US who have a major issue with Russia and wont want Greece siding up with Russia.

Then there is the issue of debt loss. Those who have lent money cannot afford to lose their money (not really) as such the best option is for them to get a deal that may give them a chance to get their money back.

The ECB and so on are openly trying to punish or squeeze Greece into accepting their terms of Austerity. This is a fools errand. If they cause Greece to default and in turn make life even harder for Greeks in an attempt to force Greeces hand then you can be damn sure the Greeks will not accept help from the EU in the future and WILL cut out and go back to the Drachma.

I also would not be surprised to see Russia step in and help out Greece as it will play to Putin's game against the EU and US who he has a serious issu with presently due to their empire building.
There is a good possibility of this outcome, but personally, if I had the choice, I would not vote for it.

Blib

43,792 posts

196 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
I thought Russia was skint?

Bodo

12,368 posts

265 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Russia would be a better partner for Greece, as they are closer to corruption. Greece wants to protect their nepotism, and the EU sees no good in this.

Begs the question if Russia were interested in Greece. They have nothing that could be of use for Russia - no geographic advantage, no educated people, no strategic natural resources. The Greek industry isn't very sophisticated. Every second world country could do what the Greeks do. I don't see a value for Russia.

Ali G

3,526 posts

281 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Go ask Roman Abramovich.

Is Russia is 'poor'

And if so 'where did the money go?'



Edited by Ali G on Monday 6th July 19:48


Edited by Ali G on Monday 6th July 19:57

Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
OK, let's look at this a different way.

if Grease has not joined the Euro, would they be in this st?
Economically they were in the sh*t long before they joined the EU, and the Euro. All that the cash they got from the EU after joining did, was allow them to continue their basket case way of operating a country for a few years longer than would have been the case. Their economy would have foundered many years before now.
As posted many times before. they want all the benefits, but steadfastly refused, and are refusing to do anything in return for them, in terms of dragging their practises and their economy into the 21st century. Their attitude to their situation is frankly incredible. they remind of the Bubbles (appropriate name) character in the Little Britain series, who has been staying at an expensive hotel
without paying, and who as soon as paying the bill is mentioned, either ran off, or made up some fantastic excuses for not paying the bill.
If anyone here lent someone else a huge amount of cash, and that person then steadfastly refused to pay any of it back, or as in the case of Greece, tried to act like the debt did not even exist, (simply because they cannot and will not pay it back). It would be time to send in the bailiffs to seize whatever assets could be used to recover the loss. The Greeks knowing that they would not pay it back, should never have joined the EU, and taken the money. which shows they are not to be trusted (by anyone) for a long, possibly indefinite length of time.

TheExcession

11,669 posts

249 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Roy Lime said:
Common Market (hopefully the tune will be obvious).
Was that you own work? I ask because...

Roy Lime

594 posts

131 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
TheExcession said:
Roy Lime said:
Common Market (hopefully the tune will be obvious).
Was that you own work? I ask because...
I'm afraid it was. I heard the song on Saturday and the lyrics popped into my hangover-befuddled brain on Sunday morning. Have to be honest though, I was aware of that story.

dandarez

13,246 posts

282 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
jimmybobby said:
The reality is the Greeks will get the bailout they need. The EU will not allow them to walk away. Tsipras has played an absolute blinder in my book. He is playing politics hard ball.

He has given the EU a bloody nose and embarrassed them by showing that the people of Greece do not want their version of a bailout.
He has also played a key factor and that is by meeting and buddying up with Russia the bad guys.

Brussels will now be under added pressure from the US who have a major issue with Russia and wont want Greece siding up with Russia.

Then there is the issue of debt loss. Those who have lent money cannot afford to lose their money (not really) as such the best option is for them to get a deal that may give them a chance to get their money back.

The ECB and so on are openly trying to punish or squeeze Greece into accepting their terms of Austerity. This is a fools errand. If they cause Greece to default and in turn make life even harder for Greeks in an attempt to force Greeces hand then you can be damn sure the Greeks will not accept help from the EU in the future and WILL cut out and go back to the Drachma.

I also would not be surprised to see Russia step in and help out Greece as it will play to Putin's game against the EU and US who he has a serious issu with presently due to their empire building.
This^^^^

What's that old (true) banking saying, something along these lines?
If you owe the bank 10 grand, then you have a problem.
If you owe the bank 10 million, then the bank has the problem.

MarshPhantom

9,658 posts

136 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
I'm so bored of this st.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
jimmybobby said:
The reality is the Greeks will get the bailout they need. The EU will not allow them to walk away. Tsipras has played an absolute blinder in my book. He is playing politics hard ball.

He has given the EU a bloody nose and embarrassed them by showing that the people of Greece do not want their version of a bailout.
He has also played a key factor and that is by meeting and buddying up with Russia the bad guys.

Brussels will now be under added pressure from the US who have a major issue with Russia and wont want Greece siding up with Russia.

Then there is the issue of debt loss. Those who have lent money cannot afford to lose their money (not really) as such the best option is for them to get a deal that may give them a chance to get their money back.

The ECB and so on are openly trying to punish or squeeze Greece into accepting their terms of Austerity. This is a fools errand. If they cause Greece to default and in turn make life even harder for Greeks in an attempt to force Greeces hand then you can be damn sure the Greeks will not accept help from the EU in the future and WILL cut out and go back to the Drachma.

I also would not be surprised to see Russia step in and help out Greece as it will play to Putin's game against the EU and US who he has a serious issu with presently due to their empire building.
That's my opinion as well.

It is not only the EU but NATO as well.

There will be a result of course, there has to be but I doubt it will be one Germany/France wanted. Tspiras is going for a write off of some of his debt. The Eurozone, or rather the Germans and French, are in an extremely difficult position. On the one hand, a Grexit (unlikely though this is) will give them untold problems, being soft on the debt will encourage Italy and Spain to pull the same stunt and demand some of their debt written off.

Between a rock and a hard place. And talking of hard places:

Russia will see this as a way of costing the EU both money and influence. Someone posted that Greece has nothing they want. I think that the Russians want a way in. Turkey has Greece on its borders, also Syria, Iran - all unstable countries, and across the sea there Ukraine.

I bet there's been some discussions with the USA about Greek debt.

I doubt the electorate thought this through, but a No vote was a clever option.

The talk of whose fault it all is misses the point. The only thing to discuss is where they go from here. It will cost everyone, including the Greeks of course, but those not directly involved as well.

Dodgy times ahead.